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Author Topic: Ashby on light weight bows...  (Read 12968 times)

Offline String Cutter

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Re: Ashby on light weight bows...
« Reply #160 on: June 08, 2009, 04:34:00 AM »
I think Fred Bear suggested 10 to 12 grains per pound... If'n it was good enough for my hero.. it good enough for me... Can't nobody be more right then Papa Bear!!!
Fatherhood is the greatest adventure a man can ever take.

Offline aussiebowhunter

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Re: Ashby on light weight bows...
« Reply #161 on: June 08, 2009, 06:48:00 AM »
good post guys and may i say what a pleasure to see so much respect for others thoughts..

good hunting
pat.

Offline James Wrenn

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Re: Ashby on light weight bows...
« Reply #162 on: June 08, 2009, 07:57:00 AM »
Turned into a good thread.  :bigsmyl:
....Quality deer management means shooting them before they get tough....

Offline elknut1

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Re: Ashby on light weight bows...
« Reply #163 on: June 08, 2009, 08:43:00 AM »
I agree once again, that the thread is informative & it's all because so many are willing to share their thoughts! I know I enjoy reading & sifting through the various findings & ideas!

Albertan, nice work on a great looking bear!!!

  James, LOL!!!Those Muzzy heads were one tough bugger for sure!!!

  J From Den---Thanks! I'm a little slow at times but I try! (grin) This is the first year that I'll be hunting elk with a carbon arrow. I've used aluminum up till now out of 2 different longbows. The aluminum's did fine with no issues but am interested in seeing if there's a noticeable difference in penetration. I figure that the carbons are stiffer structurally & should recover from paradox quicker therefore offering a bit more penetration without changing my arrow wt. Time will tell. (grin)
  It certainly holds true out of compounds that we've hunted with in the past but the speeds are not comparable to trad gear.

  ElkNut1

Offline James Wrenn

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Re: Ashby on light weight bows...
« Reply #164 on: June 08, 2009, 09:53:00 AM »
Well people always talk about carbons penitrating better than other arrows even if they weigh the same.I agree as well.Still why some always think it is because of the material inself I think it is just because they are lighter in weight.Any point you screw on one gives you a higher foc than on a like spine aluminum and more than any wood arrow.Even a 125gn point on all but the heaviest carbon results in a higher foc than a heavy point on a wood shaft.Just my idea of why I can shoot light arrows and big broadheads from my girly bows and get two holes much more often than not.  ;)
....Quality deer management means shooting them before they get tough....

Offline George D. Stout

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Re: Ashby on light weight bows...
« Reply #165 on: June 08, 2009, 11:40:00 AM »
If "ifs and butts were candy and nuts, we would have Christmas every day."

Arrow makeup and diameter have something to do with penetration, but all that goes away in a millisecond, if that arrow isn't flying perfectly and has to expend its energy correcting in flight.

I've seen guys shooting with arrows that kicked high  and low on release....wiggled back and forth, and wobbled like a wounded bumble bee.  In any of those cases, you will not get good penetration regardless of FOC, mass, KE, et al.

But, if all the energy from that arrow, is put on the tip of the broadhead as it hits the animal, the penetration will be maximized.  Make sure whatever you are shooting, it is flying in the most perfect alignment possible to the intended target.  Then work on accuracy and you won't have to worry so much about the outcome.

I will guarantee you this:  A heavy arrow will not even compare to a lighter one, if it isn't flying perfectly when it hits...and the lighter one is.  If it is flying perfectly, then you have an advantage especially in heavier game.  I've watched my 480 grain arrows zip through whitetails so quickly that the deer didn't know it was hit.
There's more to this game than numbers on a piece of paper.

Offline EIGHTWGT

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Re: Ashby on light weight bows...
« Reply #166 on: June 08, 2009, 03:59:00 PM »
I will say again - what a great thread.

I am wondering about something. I learned alot reading many threads on TradGang, as well as the Ashby reports.. this being said most of us hunt whitetails here - at least i think. Talking whitetails deer - after reading all this info, I changed my setup to improve my chances of making a killing shot in a shoulder shot deer. I wonder not what a grizzly or the modified grizzly Dr. Ashby refers to will do if it hits a shoulder bone, with a 500 grain arrow, from a well tuned setup (arrows fly straight)
It was very well put above if we could choose a head based on where we will hit we will all be fine. I cant stop thinking about penetration. My son made a perfect shot placement on a deer (his first) 2 years ago- quartering away hit opposite side shoulder and the Magnus stinger broadhead fell apart. We found the deer but because the broadhead / arrow DIDNT have an exit wound we were lucky we found it as the entrance wound was high... it was after this I started thinking about broadhead performance and read the Ashby stuff...so we all know we can blast through most shots on a deer but if we hit bone, I want an exit wound so cant help but think that broadhead design that favors easy penetration (hence 2 blade) is an advantage period.... I guess Im thinking about the bone of a big deer and what it takes to pop through it and get an exit wound...I dont think we need 800 grain arrows but in a tuned setup, I wonder what a low limit is on weight/mass of arrow.
Sorry if I am ramblin a little, all this talk has my brain in a spin.
" Hunt like the Owl - move only your head and your eyes "

Offline IronCreekArcher

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Re: Ashby on light weight bows...
« Reply #167 on: June 08, 2009, 10:51:00 PM »
Eightwgt-

I am interested in this as well.  Good questions...I wish I had the answers.  Maybe someone can point us in the right direction here.
We do not rise to the occasion.  We fall to our level of training.

Offline Jason Jelinek

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Re: Ashby on light weight bows...
« Reply #168 on: June 09, 2009, 12:31:00 AM »
EIGHTWGT,

From what I've read the heavy bone threshold is 650 grains.  Apparantly "heavy bone" includes whitetail leg bones.

I broke a leg bone of a mule deer with a 650 grain doug fir shaft with a Zwickey a few years back.  I believe there is truth to what Ashby has discovered.

High or Extreme has shown no effect on the "heavy bone" threshold, it only effects soft flesh penetration.  The arrow's weight has been discovered the key to heavy bone penetration.

Offline nightowl1

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Re: Ashby on light weight bows...
« Reply #169 on: June 09, 2009, 01:10:00 AM »
I don't understand the bone threshold... which report is that in or can someone just explain that too me...

650gr moving at what speed? because i wouldn't think i could throw a 650 arrow fast enough to break bone.

I agree with elknut on this issue, there is a point of diminishing returns. I could not take game shooting a lead pipe with a 10 lb bow. THis is the extreme i know but there is probably a bell curve in there, for a 650 gr arrow and its required speed.

A 46 lb bow may not reach that mark.
Combo Hunter 46@28

I came from nothing and I brought it with me.

Offline Piper

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Re: Ashby on light weight bows...
« Reply #170 on: June 09, 2009, 09:08:00 AM »
Brent/Albertan

Look at you go...again.  When were you going to tell the rest of us.  I look forward to the invite to next years bear hunt....it's time you shared that location, location, location with your pals.
My two cents worth

Gary

Offline elknut1

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Re: Ashby on light weight bows...
« Reply #171 on: June 09, 2009, 09:30:00 AM »
Good questions & good points! As one can tell broadhead choice can really come into play here!
  First I want to say that by trying to build an arrow wt. that will bust through anything is really not the way to approach this, sure we need penetration but we also need a reasonably flatter shooting arrow, you need the best of both worlds, 9-10grn per lb offers this. This wt. may be adjusted for large dangerous African game as should ones draw wt.on such hunts.
   As George mentions "TUNED" equipment is of great importance, penetration & tuned equipment go hand in hand.

  Pass-throughs are great but not necessary! I personally want a larger wound channel & don't care if arrow comes out other side or not. I will still & do get plenty of blood loss to track that animal.
   I've had exactly the same experience with a 2-blade as EIGHTWGT has. His son got tons of penetration actually way more than enough, he went 3/4 the way through a deer but the shot was high. The cavity no doubt was filling with blood with little coming out the entrance hole. That's some tough blood trailing for sure.

  I've shot elk in similar spots with zero blood for tracking with 2-blades. I've shot elk in those same areas with 3-blades, bigger wound channel more blood! Doesn't matter if the shot is a bit high they still bleed! I will state again, 2-blades will kill that's not the issue, the issue is blood on the ground on great hits & no so great hits.
   For hunters to feel they must bust through leg bones to have a great setup is just not reasonable. This can lead to wounded critters. I avoid such shots & angles if at all possible. You could glance off left, right, up or down even though you're getting penetration, your odds are not good that on such shots you will dead center the bone hit & continue on with perfectly straight in performance! There are plenty of places to hit deer & elk without connecting with solid bone! For the record a 10grn per lb arrow with an Aboyer head for example will blow through the lower portion of an elks shoulder/scapula plate, no question in my mind!
   You are not as likely to do this with a 3-bladed head, odds are very low! To penetrate scapula type hits you'd better also hope your critter is perfectly broadside, it's tough to penetrate tough bone on angled or glancing shots, they will have a tendency to skip or skid off. Point being, stay away from that area, you're too high anyway!

  Too, 500grn arrows shot out of proper # bows don't bounce off animals! We've shot plenty of animals to back that up. Do a test of your own to build your confidence if need be! It's tough to base ones end all decision on one animal hit, the more the better & proper data can be accessed for the best results!

  ElkNut1

   It's like saying you hunt the wind but now you wear scent-lok & now I can forget the wind, not true & you will be busted by an elks nose!

Offline IronCreekArcher

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Re: Ashby on light weight bows...
« Reply #172 on: June 09, 2009, 10:37:00 AM »
Hey Curt I have a question...why did my post of asking Albertan if he had an article in a bowhuntng magazine get removed?
We do not rise to the occasion.  We fall to our level of training.

Offline leatherneck

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Re: Ashby on light weight bows...
« Reply #173 on: June 09, 2009, 11:23:00 AM »
nightowl1- You ask what would be considered too much. Only you can answer that question. Example- I shot 525 grain arrow from a 54# curve but wanted some more weight. I made it al the way to 700 grains but was not happy with my arrow trajectory. So I backed it down. I now shoot with an arrow of 625 grains, comfortablely. Yes, I could get more speed with a lighter arrow, and yes I might gain a touch more penetration with the heavier arrow. But I found a happy medium that I can live with and is TUNED perfectly to my bow. Did I say it's tuned perfectly to my bow?  :bigsmyl:  
With that said, try several different setups and see which one you feel good with. Be sure to tune with each setup as bad tuning could give you a false read. It takes time but you will be pleased in the end.

Mike

ELKNUT- I purchased one of those purty scent-lok suits several years ago and you know what I got; a $200.00 pair of purty coveralls. Hunt the wind smart!
“I can accept failure, everyone fails at something. But I can’t accept not trying"

Proud shareholder of MK,LLC

Offline Guru

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Re: Ashby on light weight bows...
« Reply #174 on: June 09, 2009, 11:31:00 AM »
ICA,I have no idea....
Curt } >>--->   

"I love you Daddy".......My son Cade while stump shooting  3/19/06

Offline IronCreekArcher

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Re: Ashby on light weight bows...
« Reply #175 on: June 09, 2009, 01:10:00 PM »
Just wondering it seems to have disappeared oh well I will just PM him...hey have you heard how Tracys hip is doing?  I have not seen him on here in a while.
We do not rise to the occasion.  We fall to our level of training.

Offline Guru

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Re: Ashby on light weight bows...
« Reply #176 on: June 09, 2009, 01:58:00 PM »
Tracy's doing great   :thumbsup:    :thumbsup:
Curt } >>--->   

"I love you Daddy".......My son Cade while stump shooting  3/19/06

Offline IronCreekArcher

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Re: Ashby on light weight bows...
« Reply #177 on: June 09, 2009, 10:12:00 PM »
Thats very good to hear!! :thumbsup:   Are you going out to hunt with him this year?
We do not rise to the occasion.  We fall to our level of training.

Offline nightowl1

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Re: Ashby on light weight bows...
« Reply #178 on: June 09, 2009, 11:40:00 PM »
I have always had the mentality "know why you believe what you believe"...i think thats a perfect fit for this thread
Combo Hunter 46@28

I came from nothing and I brought it with me.

Offline elknut1

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Re: Ashby on light weight bows...
« Reply #179 on: June 10, 2009, 08:26:00 AM »
nightowl1, very good point & so true!

  ElkNut1

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