Ashby on light weight bows...

[GMMAT]

I don't understand the bone threshold... which report is that in or can someone just explain that too me...

650gr moving at what speed? because i wouldn't think i could throw a 650 arrow fast enough to break bone.
 

See....this is why I despise "absolutes" in most hunting discussions.  The 650gr. threshold (alone) is useless.

I disagree (respectfullly) with those who proclaim a pass-thru isn't that important.  What could be of more importance to a hunter at the POI than the arrow?  Having the arrow to confirm or identify the severity of your hit is paramount for determining your recovery plan of action.  I know I've "smoked" deer in my mind's eye.....only to have the arrow tell a diiferent story (either at the POI; along the recovery trail).

I think studies like Dr. (What's he a Dr. of, anyways????) Ashby's are somewhat an exercise.  The thing is.....what he's trying to sell is pretty much common sense.  

It's really not that hard.  Get the heaviest arrow that your setup will push (and yes, there is a point of diminishing returns, here).  Get that arrow flying straight/true.  Put a sharp, pointy cutting head on the front of it.....and fire away.

At some point, the heavier arrow (shot from the same bow) will become LESS lethal than it's lighter counterpart.  Common sense.  Use that same common sense to figure out where that is, for you and your setup.

I think it's interesting we think we need someone else to make BH choices for us.

[Pat B.]

One of the most profound statements I have ever heard was uttered by a good friend of mine.

It is:  AVOID EXTREMES !!!

[Bob Morrison]

I'm in the process of changing arrow setup again. I'm sure this really surprises everyone    I like a big heavy head 300+.
I'm trying a GT Ultra light with 300 head total 517grains, 27" arrow @45-48# @ 26". My personal feeling is the heavy point is better than total arrow weight. I'm not saying 300 upfront and 100 gr arrow. anything over 450 total and 250 Plus heads. Elknut,Charlie, anyone with actual experiance with this type of setup.

Bob

[Pat B.]

Bob, I'm trying a similar set up but I'm using 520 Redlines or CT Cheetah 525's..  

I'm anxious to try the set up on game. I'm not familiar with the GTUL's I'll have to give them a look..

[leatherneck]

Bob, tried the GT traditionals with the 300 up front and found them to be too weak for my setup. Couldn't cut the arrow down anymore. You might be right in the ball park with that setup though.
Was wondering when you would poke your nose in here.LOL

Mike

[Zbearclaw]

Two things I would add to the application of Dr Ashby's intel.  Not only is he hunting "dangerous game" that have very heavy bone structures and a penchant to not die easily and get after those that didn't hit them well, but also that almost all of the even smaller plains game in Africa have "hog like" vitals.

By hog like I mean they are low and far forward compared to our N American deer species that the majority of us primarily hunt.  His basis for finding the best penetrating combo is not necessarily because he is just a shoulder crowder by nature, but even the impala there have vital areas much farther into the shoulder than our deer.  Anyone that has hunted hogs much knows that perfect "pin wheel" shot on a whitetail may very well end in a peetered out blood trail and a crappy night's sleep.

Also, for elknut your findings are very interesting and highlight well that it is not always "add more grains" to increase penetration, however every bow is different and your #55 long bow may have a far different "best penetration range" than my #55 takedown recurve, given the different power strokes and the like.  Also the quiet factor is something worth considering if looking at an arrow weight on the light end of the "penetration range" and the high end, if the lighter end is moisier.

Keep the info coming, hopefully ya'll are willing to tear up enough broadheads and shafts that I don't have to spend my greenbacks doing the same!

Zeke

[Charlie Lamb]

Bob... right now (and for a while) I've been shooting right around 305gr. up front and believe it's a great advantage.

I'd take more up front weight if I could get it and still stay in tune and within a reasonable total arrow weight. I'm shooting a 625gr. arrow out of my 63# recurve @ 30 inches.

My arrow performance on game is super so I'm really not looking to change anything.
Hope that is something along the lines of an answer.
 

[coaster500]

Mike, what is the set up did you try the gold tips with? I have some pro's 55/75 I've been wanting to play with.

Ryan


(Bob, tried the GT traditionals with the 300 up front and found them to be too weak for my setup. Couldn't cut the arrow down anymore. You might be right in the ball park with that setup though.
Was wondering when you would poke your nose in here.LOL

Mike)

[EIGHTWGT]

Charlie,

Where are you guys getting your 300 grain field points ?

[JimB]

I recently saw that Kustom King has 300 grain screw in field points.

[champ38]

Great thread Elknut..
Where can I get one of your DVD's mentioned above ?

[elknut1]

Bob, in some of the tests I did (too much to read I know--grin) the arrows that were the same weight from 600gn-700gn as I did a few of them had better penetration with the heavier head weight. In other words 2 arrows that weighed let's say 625gn, one with 165grn head & one with 250gn head but both arrows the same weight the 250gn head weight out penetrated the lesser one.
   I've not hunted any game with a heavier than 205gn head weight, It already blows through elk, I personally see no need for more this way I can still maintain a flatter shooting arrow out to 30-35yds. As one guy put it, "avoid extremes" your setup & penetration will eventually be compromised!

  champ38---www.elknut.com will show you the various DVDs out. Thanks!

  ElkNut1

[leatherneck]

Coaster(Ryan)- I'm shooting a 60" Morrison Shawnee recurve 54@27 with 300 up front. When I dropped to 250 they were flying pretty good. But the 300 were showing weak. I wanted to keep my arrow over 600 so thats why I switched to Arrow Dynamics. They fly great with my 300 up front. The GT's were smackin my riser. Hope this helps.

Eightwgt-Bob Morrison from Morrison Achery also carries the  300 grain field points. He's a sponsor on here.

Mike

[Lt. Dan]

Hello nightowl1.  Gotta love the Trad Gang.  To answer your question, yes.  You will get a penetration advantage.  I don't like the trajectory of 13 grains/pound.  The 480 gr arrow should be fine but I think you should find an arrow that flies true that's closer to 11 to 12 gpp.  Get the test kit for tapered field points that range from 100 gr to 250 gr and find out for yourself what your tolerance is for trajectory.

Both Elknut and Apex know how to kill elk.  But there is no arguement on the definition of sectional density.  Higher SD will penetrate better than lower SD.  

That's about as respectful as I could put it.

[JOKER]

I have finaly read this entire thread and I can't take it any more, I had to post.

Everyone, If you want to learn somthing about arrow penatration READ DR ASHBY'S REPORTS!!!

Nightowl1, you asked if there were any advantage to a 625gr 22%foc arrow over a 480gr 22%foc arrow out of an 46#@27" arrow. the answer is YES!!! it would penatrate better if everything else were equal and they were both tuned. However, trojectory would be poor compared to the 480gr arrow. A high FOC 480gr arrow properly tuned with a good sharp COC broadhead would be a great choice out of a 46# bow.

Elknut:
It sounds like you are starting to realize the advantage of High FOC and skinney carbon arrows. However you are way of base on wether a heavy arrow out prnatrates a light one. Yes there is a an arrow weight where there are diminishing returns but you are noware close to that (somewhere over 15gpp). You realy need to read all of Ashbys reports and then re read them.

I am sorry but your testing is not very scientific and is flowed. You are doing alot of guess-work due to poor scientific method. Example 1: your first test was between an 617gr 2018 with 200gr tip and 2216 footing & a 485gr mfx 500 with 200gr tip. Yes the one is hevier and should show beter penatration however all that is taken away due to the huge diameter of the 2216 footing, much lower FOC, and aluminum vrs carbon!! All this test told you was that one arrow out pennatrated the other. There was no controll almost everything was different between the two arrows.

Example 2: you compared two MFX arrows, a 617gr MFX400 with 200gr pt and a 485gr MFX500 with 200gr pt. You had three things the same arrow diameter, pt weight an length(27 1/4"). However there were also three things different; tune, FOC and weight. Yes the 617gr arrow was not tuned to the bow, that is why it broke. Unless you have a majec bow that shoots an MFX400 and MFX500 at the same length with the same pt weight the same? Also, how did you get that MFX400 to weigh 617gr? either you added weight tubes (which would have made it more stiff) or that is not the correct weight.

Sorry Elknut, but you are wrong on some of these tings and some of the info you are giving people is just wrong.

Don't get me wrong Elknut is a great guy and has helped alot of people be better elk hunters (including me). If you are serious about elk hunting you need to get his DVD's.

P.S. Sorry about the spelling, I can't spell and am afraid to use the spell ck. The last time I tryed to use the spell ck the popup blocker deleted my post. Just because I am paranoid dosen't mean that the computer isn't out to get me.

Steve

[James Wrenn]

Or you could just learn by doing.Sometimes experiance does not agree with written reports.    The reports are a good starting point for someone that lacks experiance.They were not handed down from the mountain like some seem to believe however.  

[Ray Hammond]

Jeff Venable,

You asked several questions...and I think I can answer a couple of them.

The speed of the arrow is irrelevant, unless you are throwing it by hand.

AT NO POINT will a lighter arrow outpenetrate a heavier arrow. I think your point may have been you can shoot a lighter arrow further than you can a heavy arrow? That's true, but it won't penetrate.

You can try that out for yourself by shooting a kid's arrow ( to really make it exaggerated) at a target sixty or eighty yards away.  It will literally bounce off the target butt most of the time. Now shoot a 600 grain arrow at the same target. You are going to get some penetration, sir.

Or, try throwing a ping pong ball at 150 feet per second at a snow bank..and then throw a golf ball at the same speed.. which one will go further into the snow?

Ed is not advising you to shoot 900 grains at North Carolina whitetails.

What he is doing is exaggerating all parameters by shooting huge game with heavy and light arrows and demonstrating that failures will occur most often the lighter you try to go, which for the last 25 years has been the trend in archery. His efforts have not been for TRADITIONAL ARCHERS, but for ALL ARCHERY HUNTERS. By a huge majority, those are people who shoot contraptions marketed to "go fast" cause they've made the argument that will win over everything else- unfortunately.

Shot placement, sharpness of head, type of head, and the size and configuration of the shaft are all contributing factors of varying import to the final result.

Just don't go buffalo hunting with 350 grain arrows and you'll be OK.

I don't see any reason to poo poo someone life's work that has been done up until now for the sole purpose of helping other hunters with no monetary contribution from anyone-using scientific principles - just because it doesn't  pertain to 100 lb whitetails and turkeys that most of us spend our time hunting. His results are no less valid.

You rarely ever see cars running into big giant steel things that look like counterweights off of a stationary crane, but when they crash test cars that's what they run them into.

When they test airplanes do they fly them on the straight and level? Not hardly! They put them through some tremendous G-forces and try to make them fail, so you and I are safe when we fly on the straight and level.

Testing archery equipment is the same- isn't it? What's the difference between what Ed Ashby has done and what PSE does when they dry fire a bow 10,000 times in a row mechanically to TRY to make that bow fail? How else would you WANT your broadheaded arrow tested? On rabbits?

[nightowl1]

thanks for the post Mr. Ray but i have one issue. I am not arguing the argument in general (because I am the initial poster with the question) but the strength of your last statement.

If "The speed of the arrow is irrelevant, unless you are throwing it by hand.", then the speed is relevant. At some speed heavier objects become more efficient than lighter ones and at some speed they will lose this advantage. A 4 lb arrow out of a 40# bow will not have the same impact as a 600 grain arrow.

A golf ball versus a ping pong ball I understand but what if you filled the ping pong ball to the point that it weighed 5 lbs and launched it with the same energy? I would expect the golf ball to go deeper because the gravity applied to the heavy ball would pull it down throw the snow creating more friction. It may have a further channel through the snow but that channel would be moving downward while the golf ball could be lodged deeper. Does that make sense?
You were looking at the extreme on the lighter side, this would be the extreme on the heavier. It works just the same.
I have heard all of these arguments before and thats what made me ask my question of where does this benefit fall.


My initial post was will i see a difference between 10.5 gpp and 13.8 gpp. I got some good replies and good thoughts. Of course I took Dr. Ashby into consideration. My final decision was not based on penetration though( From the discussion I feel both arrows will penetrate just as well on the game I am pursuing, its matter of how far they keep flying once they leave the animal) but on trajectory and accuracy. The drop of a 13.89 gpp arrow past 20-25 yards is just a little daunting for a guy like me. I like the flatter shooting arrow.

So am I ignoring someones life long work? Not at all! I will be shooting a razor sharp broadhead with a structuraly increased tip, with 20+% FOC, a minimum of 10.5 gpp, from a small diameter arrow, flying perfectly from a whisper quiet bow. It seems the only thing Dr. Ashby liked that I'm not using is higher total mass. The only thing wrong with that setup is if I shot the arrow backwards!

[Ray Hammond]

Coby-

LOOK AT THE VERY TOP OF MY POST- that isn't your name, right?  

I thought we were discussing reality, not theory. The speed of the arrow IS irrelevant( go back and read my post- AT THE YARDAGES WE USE FOR HUNTING) Not a mile downrange..not 300 yards downrange, not 100 yards downrange...not 50 yards downrange... as long as its coming out of a bow at a speed that will launch the heavy and the light arrows its irrelevant.

You cannot shoot a five pound arrow from any bow I have ever seen...taking it to the extreme, yes...that's what I did...but I took things to an extreme that will still function. You can shoot a 1200 grain arrow out of a bow..you cannot shoot a five pound arrow.

Just how far can you effectively shoot game? How far do you WANT to shoot game?

If you are that worried about ballistics they make guns for that purpose.

Otherwise, instead of worrying about 3 grains per inch, why not just gain the skills to get 5 yards closer and you can shoot a telephone pole at them?

[SteveB]

They were not handed down from the mountain like some seem to believe however.