Ashby on light weight bows...

[SpikeMaster]

elknut1 and StickDP, the reason you got better penetration with the lighter arrow probably was because the lighter arrow was better tuned the to the bow than the heavier arrow. The heavier arrow was probably too stiff. With both arrows being properly tuned a heavier arrow will always out penetrate a lighter one. With all that being said, a 500 grain or so arrow is more than heavy enough to shoot through any deer.

[ArrowAtomik]

A 2018 and an MFX beman couldn't be more different in diameter.  Completely apples to oranges.  Arrow diameter has an enormous effect on penetration, especially in a foam target.  Go crazy loading up the front end of a stiffer MFX and you'll probably blow through that target.

[James Wrenn]

What good is more penitration when you will already be shooting through what you are hunting?Sticking in the ground farther is of little help after an arrow passes through.Being able to still hit the kill zone if you misjudge the shot a little does help a lot and it something that is likely to happen every year.

[jacobsladder]

James...amen brother...shoot what your confident in..

[elknut1]

Spikemaster, both arrows were tuned just fine no issues there. 3 1/2" difference is much more than a slight wobble could ever be blamed for! A heavier arrow will not always out penetrate a lighter arrow when you've gone too far on the heavy end just as if you went way too light the other direction given the draw weight you're dealing with or comparing too.

  In this case a 45#-50# draw. The ultimate in trajectory & penetration will be had in a 475grn-525grn arrow at the heaviest, after that or before that & you will lack penetration, period! Don't take my word for it, please head outside with correctly spined arrows as I did & check for yourself.

  Arrowatomik--Diameter of arrow is irrelevant here in testing. Both arrows are spined for the 55# longbow I'm shooting them out of, tuning is not the issue. The target is in great shape as well. I shot many arrows into this & the results are the same! Both arrows tested had 200 grains up-front they were equal. This is not my first rodeo! (grin)

  The point is there is a good balance of speed & penetration that can be had by each bow. This is determined by the poundage you are pulling! Now If I had taken a 62#-65# draw wt bow, now the 617grn arrow would out penetrate the 485 grain arrow, pure & simple. It now has enough stored energy to handle the extra heavy arrow.

  The same is true with the 55# bow I shot the first 2 arrows through. The 485grn (up to 525grn) is a perfect happy medium for the available energy in that bows poundage. Now if I took a 360 grain arrow that spines to my 55# bow & shot it, it would suffer in penetration. Sure the speed is there but the arrow is not heavy enough to maintain the needed momentum to out penetrate the 485 grain arrow, the reason is I now went to extremes the other way!
   Guess what? I just went out & did that exact thing. I shot a 360grn spined for the bow arrow & in 6 out 6 shots the 485grn arrow out penetrated the 360 grn arrow 1 1/2" each time. Yes the 360grn arrow is faster but it lacks enough weight to keep penetrating showing me that the 485grn arrow is best for the weight being dealt with in the bow!
  You guys can debate all you want, go out & do your own testing & you will see the same results!
   If the thread user decides on his 615 grn arrow for the 48# bow he's shooting he will sacrifice both penetration & speed! Testing doesn't lie & alleviates theory!

  For the record there was no noticeable sound or level of noise difference in any of the 3 arrows tested. All shot great & whisper quiet, no handshock nothing out of the Sapphire Hawk L/B

  ElkNut1

[nightowl1]

seems like i found a topic that needed discussing...

[SteveB]

Elknut - the voice of reason        

Steve

[Brian Krebs]

I was thinkin on this here thread; and really; I cannot remember ever losing an animal and looking back on it and thinking I wished I had better penetration on the shot.

 I do indeed wish I had been more accurate.

I like it when Elknut1 says "just giving my 2 cent worth" : when all he has in his pockets are 1909 SVDB wheaties    :D        

[Apex Predator]

You engineers and pyhsicists (probably mis-spelled both) are a hard bunch to convince.

I still stand by the theory that the heavier arrow will ALWAYS out penetrate the lighter one, provided that they are shot from the same bow and both flying true at impact.  It's really pretty simple.

I didn't think the poster wanted someone to tell him if each would work.  I seem to recall him asking which would penetrate better.

[bmb]

i like both light and heavy. for hogs i have used arrows up to 525grs. on deer i use a 378gr arrow. both arrows well tuned and have and will pass thru deer.

btw- my bow i have used these arrows out of is 44# at my draw. also the heaviest point i have ever used is a 125gr point...no weighted inserts or anything. weight is distributed throughout the arrow.

[Charlie Lamb]

I just can't resist. I agree that heavier will take longer to stop... more penetration.

HOWEVER!!!

Given the original figures offered by the topic starter, there is a 145 grain difference between heavy and what he has now.

Folks, that's .331 ounce. I just don't get the great returns in penetration of adding another 1/3 oz. to the arrow.

My hats off to you guys that hang your hopes and dreams on that pile driving addition.
       :D

[J from Denmark]

Elknut
Arrow diameter is one of the VERY MOST important factors on both foam and critters.

Actually its the main reason that people get better penetration with carbons then alu or wood.

I have done tons of testing too and I can tell you that with the same diameter and the same foc the heavier arrow will kick the most ass !

BTW it will also have most of both kinetic and momentum energi !

[katman]

To answer the original post the lighter will work if you choose your shots as you will not blow thru the entire length of the deer (severe quartering away) and maybe not the bulky shoulder muscles of a mature deer. If you can shoot the heavier arrow accurately out to your effective range it should penetrate better IF all else is equal.

Elknut, the only fault I can find with your testing, besides diameter, is you are comparing to different types of shaft materials that react differently to energy transfer, aluminum vs carbon. In my non-scientific testing carbon shafts of the same diameter the heavier arrow out penetrated the lighter one.

[Potoo]

Ping pong ball, golf ball, or base ball....which do you think will go deeper into a snow bank [new wet drift snow] if thrown by the same person? I think the golf ball will win every time. With arrows too, diameter, weight, speed are all about 'reasonable' trade offs.

Oh yeah, don't throw golf balls at deer!

[James Wrenn]

If you shoot through animals with both light and heavy arrows how is the heavy one any better?Have any of you guys ever hit a deer in the chest with an arrow?They really cut pretty easy with about anything that is sharp.  :D  

In the last couple of years with all the heavy arrow,single bevel stuff it seems like deer have grown steel plating over there sides.Shoot heavy arrows if you want but but there are thousands of deer that have been killed over the years with regular arrows and they really are no tougher now to shoot through than before the Ashby stuff came out.Unless you are useing depth stuck in the dirt to measure penitration on a soft little deer heavy verses light does not mean a thing.It is about as important as worring about the fastest bow and many others when there is a 3 or 4fps difference in speed between them when it comes to killing.    

btw..a 480gn arrow is pretty heavy.  

[Rob DiStefano]

imo, all this chit chat can be distilled down to one thought process equation ...

have a trust worthy rig that best defines how accurate your shot placement will be during any hunting situation.  

couple that with an extremely sharp cut-on-contact broadhead.

know you and yer rig's effective, consistent kill range, for the quarry yer hunting.

the arra weight is the last thing i'd think of, but it would surely be part of the equation.  

each of us needs to plug in the right numbers to the above statements.  talking it over is interesting - what really matters is how it all relates to you and yer hunting.

[Rob DiStefano]

one thing i'll add - at least for me, and arrow penetration aside ...

although the downside is increased trajectory arc beyond 15-20 yards with my 50-55# longbows, heavier arrows (11 to 12 gpp) just feel *right* ... the shot feels more stable on release, the bow is quieter both during and after release (more limb energy transferred to the arrow), and the arrows just group better (accuracy improved).  the rest is in getting the gray matter bowsight to make the bow hand do the right thing.  

[elknut1]

Potoo hit the nail on the head "reasonable tradeoff"

  I'm no expert & am not claiming to be, but I do have common sense & it doesn't matter to me as a "hunter" what material I shoot into, I want to see which arrow is giving me the most penetration & speed, without lacking in either, that's the arrow I will consider. I also fall back onto real world experience not theory & here-say!

  Heavy is a realitive term & defined differently by the user. I'm applying it to the draw wt of the bow used. 485grn out of the 55# L/B was best for penetration & speed. (trajectory) What some are saying is that with this same bow that an 800grn arrow would out penetrate the 617grn arrow, this is not true & cannot happen as the bow at 55# does not produce the needed energy.
   But put both those arrows through a 75# bow & the 800grn would now surpass the 617grn arrow. The 617grn arrow would lack the needed momentum that is now stronger in the 800grn arrow. I don't know why it's so hard to understand?

  Too, why is the diameter an issue from a carbon to an aluminum, if one is as restrictive towards penetration as you believe then you best stay away from that one! That is if one wants ultimate penetration value!
   Heavy is good & needed but not too heavy nor too light. A 615 grn arrow through 48# is ridiculous! The 485grn arrow is much better suited for that bows weight.

  I've taken a dozen elk with a slow compound, it shot 220fps, it was an oldie but I liked it! (grin) I shot 410-450grn arrows through that setup with both aluminums & carbons with 75% pass-throughs. A lot depends on angles! So now why wouldn't 485 grn be sufficient? Doesn't make sense to say it wouldn't now does it!
  I will also say that I have taken 2 bulls with the 55# L/B with a 485grn arrow, no problem at all I also took another with a 540grn arrow, both worked fine. I took one bull at 28yds right through the center of the scapula on the lower half of it with the 410grn setup out of the 220fps compound with a 125 muzzy 3-blade, the bull went 65yds & piled up. This is another reason why I would have no issues recommending the 485grn to the thread starter, plus of the testing I have done personally.

  I will say again, a Heavier arrow will not "always" out penetrate a lighter arrow given the weight of the draw of the bow. If you can prove otherwise I'd love to hear & see it. Theory is not proof because someone told you it should!
  Guys, this is a good healthy debate I do appreciate the various thoughts. I'm not saying it's my way or no way, I'm not that sort of guy, but my experience & testing is solid & not guess-work!

  ElkNut1

[Apex Predator]

"What some are saying is that with this same bow that an 800grn arrow would out penetrate the 617grn arrow, this is not true & cannot happen as the bow at 55# does not produce the needed energy."

Sorry, but I disagree.  

It's all good though, because they will both work fine for deer.  I hunt hogs a lot, in case you don't know me.  Many of the bows I shoot are only mid forties at my 27" draw.  These are straight longbows, which are not barn burners.  I shoot through stuff all the time with these girly bows.  I think much of the reason is that I'm shooting 14 gpp.  It works for me.  If you want to shoot 350 grain arrows out of 45 pound straight profile longbows at hogs, then I ain't tracking your game for you!

[Jeff Strubberg]

My first question would be...what do you plan to hunt?