Ashby on light weight bows...

[elknut1]

Hey guys, thanks for taking the time to comment. It's tough to please everyone but tests are tests. So far no matter the arrows composition tested the 617grn arrow has not won one test. I could lie & say otherwise but that wouldn't help any out that were truly looking to better their setups or just confirm their present setups!

  To be brief, I tested 2 arrows this morning with broadheads this time! A 2018 aluminum at 628grn tipped with a 2-blade ABowyer single bevel head at 210grn which includes adapter. The 2nd arrow was the same .500 MFX Beman with a magnus stinger with a total head weight of 205grn total arrow wt. 490grn. Both heads were equally sharp. I tested a total of 24 shots per head at distances from 15yds to 25yds at the rear quarter of the nearly new dense Hog. It's very consistent with no soft spots at all. The 490grn head won 24 out of 24 in the penetration category. The shots varied in depth differences from 2" to 1/2" depending on the distance. I was very precise in each measurement! I should mention I left the bleeders in the magnus stinger for grins or the difference in depth would have even been greater!
   Not only that the trajectory was so horrible at 25 yards it truly was amazing with the 628grn arrow. It dropped every bit of 24" more than the 490grn arrow at the 25yds.

  Please understand folks I'm not trying to convince anyone here of anything, I'm merely sharing the results of the tests. You can make changes or you can keep what you use now, it doesn't make any difference to me, I'm just sharing info!

  On another note arrows don't just bounce off animals for no reason! We've taken a good 50 bulls with 390grn-420grn arrows over the years out of compounds from 40# to 75#---When you consider that 490grn really isn't that light! The 40# bow was my sons, he killed 2 bulls with it & that thing was sending arrows in 170's--Most decent L/B & Recurves will send a 490grn arrow in the 190's these days. That's more than just adequate elk medicine! Have a good one guys & gals!

  ElkNut1

[Bjorn]

C'mon elknut making holes in boards and foam has nothing to do with making holes in real animals. As an example it makes no difference if the BH is very sharp or not quite so sharp in board penetration-does that mean we don't need to sharpen BH's anymore either?
Ashby has done the tests extensively, and shooting into real flesh; so shooting arrows into HandiPlanks, or whatever they are won't change a thing, except show us how to make holes in boards.

[SteveB]

Trouble with all tests is there is no controlled median that accurately replicates LIVING animals - including fresh dead. Far too many varibles(bone/no bone, density of the bone,angle of impact, animal moving, breathing etc, and dozens of others) to ever get the numbers of exactly matched shots needed to show anything more then anecdotal trends.

Everyone has their own thoughts, ideas, and opinions on what shooting into different medians means to them. We then couple it with our own real experiances with live animals, determine our needs for the game we are pursuing and choose our equipment accordingly.

There is no right or wrong if what we choose works for us. And lots of combos work.

Steve

[Traxx]

Good post SteveB

[Jesse Minish]

I think Elknut has plenty of experience as he has stated in shooting live animals. Who is this Ashbey guy I keep hearing about one would think nobody has killed anything before he came around.

[SBT]

Here you go Jesse,

 http://tradgang.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=forum;f=24

He's stuck an animal or two over the years.

[Shinken]

There have been some good comments made above and maybe a little different perspective/approach might be useful in this discussion so that we are all on the same page.
-------------------------------------

I think that we would all agree that

(1) a .22 Rimfire is capable of killing *any* animal in North America - it's all about shot placement

(2) a field tipped arrow  will kill *any* animal in North America - it's all about shot placement (e.g., penetration of both lungs for major organ damage)

(3) bowhunting is accurately shooting an arrow tipped with a razor sharp broadhead into the vital organs to quickly and humanely kill the targeted animal- by a combination of hemorrhage and/or major organ destruction

(4) in order to achieve #3 a bowhunter *must* practice with their hunting equipment to develop the necessary skill to take a high confidence, accurate shot (based on (a) the effective shooting range of their equipment and (b) the appropriate shot angle using knowledge of the target animal's anatomy)  with an arrow tipped with a razor sharp broadhead capable of penetrating to the vital organs.

(5) much of the decision making tends to be subjective rather than objective, but ethical bowhunters will stack the deck in their favor in order to achieve #3.  Ethics can be learned from others or by experience.

(6) we should all be ethical.  To help people achieve this goal, laws (game laws) have been established.  However, that does not necessarily mean that one size fits all and that everyone must drive the "same type of car".  (e.g., my daughter and I both hunt elk and we both use legal equipment, but we each know our limitations so our shot selection and shot distance are different - dramatically different....)

(I don't think I've had this much fun since the last time I served on jury duty.....)

Soooooo...the bottom line is that there IS more than one equipment combination that will effectively kill elk, but a good elk bowhunter would be able to use a particular combination of matched equipment to achieve that goal by practice, practice, practice, and more practice in combination with study of the animal to stack the odds in their favor (e.g., the things mentioned above - learn their effective shooting range, *know* the anatomy of the animal, and use a razor sharp broadhead).

That's all I've got for tonight!

Shoot straight, Shinken

[Apex Predator]

It's important to have confidence in your arrow setup, and it's obvious Elknut has plenty!  

[elknut1]

Good posts & thoughts guys!!! For the record!!!!! I'm not comparing or competing with Dr. Ashby in any shape or form no more than he would compete with me. Not in any post I have written have I even remotely alluded to that either so let's dismiss those thoughts please, thanks!---

    This is what it's all about, thinking & doing things where we have hands on. I totally agree with the flesh & bone thoughts as well, penetration can be hindered or heightened depending on different forms of contact once inside the animal, we have no control over that but we can put together a setup that best suits our bows to be the best they can be, that's all I'm doing here, again remember the original question, the individual wanted to know what arrow suited is 48# bow best?

  And yes, a guy can get some great feedback out in the backyard how his setup will do once in the field where it counts! It's called testing! What's wrong with that, have we gotten so high-tech we can't get our hands dirty! Do we need to read a book/manual or watch a video & let them give all the answers so we don't have to do anything ourselves? Hey, where's the fun in that!! (grin) I enjoy the tinkering with the bow it's brace height & varying the poundage a bit, too I like fooling with woodies, carbons & aluminum with various tip weights & arrow lengths, so sue me! (grin) This is how we have hands on & learn & put together these awesome setups together & get to know our equipment inside & out, it's a lot of fun & very satisfying when it all comes together!!

  Bjorn, Those various target sources do have their value, although not perfect but very good starting points & indicators on what one can expect from his equipment! It's like testing broadheads for durability, if you had one that continued to fail or bend in ground hits & others stayed in great shape after such hits you most likely wouldn't use the weaker one. The arrow testing are just that, indicators!
  If you really would like to know what different poundage's & arrow broadhead combination's & wts. work very well I'd be happy to share any info with you I have as far as real life experiences go. I've seen & been through quite a bit with a variety of applications & bow weights. I can share quite a bit on just penetration itself like tough critters such as Elk especially. My confidence comes from experience, the more you see setups actually perform well the more confidence one will have.

  Well, I'm testing 3 different arrows today all the same wt. within 7grns--540grn. All have different head wts. I want to see how each perform as far as penetration goes. One is a lodgepole wood with a 125grn head--2216 with a 150grn head wt.--2018 with no collar & a 175grn head wt. all weigh in around 540grn & are tuned to my 55# L/B. Care to guess which one is best in penetrating? (grin)

  ElkNut1

[Orion]

Interesting stuff.  However, there are a number of variables that aren't being controlled/tested.  Elknut, you're primarily trying to compare heavy vs. light, but arrow surface and arrow diameter as well as arrow dampening also play a role in penetration.  Aluminum generally has a larger diameter than carbon.  Don't know if that's the case in the arrows you compared, but if it is, I would expect the aluminum arrow to penetrate less.  An arrow shaft smaller than the broadhead/point which the carbon shaft would have is a huge advantage in penetration.  Likewise, aluminum bends more on impact than carbon, also reducing penetration.  I have no idea which material might be "slipperier" going through wood, foam or a real animal, but I expect it plays a part as well.  Can't assume that these factors don't have a substantial impact.  Need to test them to be sure.  In fact, Ashby already has.

[J from Denmark]

Elknut in you last test its still to many variables. The light arrow have both high foc and way smaller diameter counting for it.
If you TRULY want to know if more ARROWWEIGHT is good or not you HAVE to make arrows that are the same foc, diameter, same tip, and equal good tune.

Here is a CHALLENGE for you :
I will bet you that if you test you existing "light arrow" against another carbon spine 500 cut ( and tuned )a little shorter but with more tipweight ( use steel adapters, brassinserts or so ) the heavy one( which will have most foc also ) WILL outperform the first one !

If you cannot tune a spine 500 use a spine 400 with a 275-300 grain head ( a 200 grain head on on a heavyer arrow wiil have less foc then a 200 gr. head on  alight arrow )

[Mint]

I noticed that i was getting better penetration using Heritage 150's with 220gr phantoms up front on hogs then when i was shooting goldtip 3555's. The heritage were coming in at 575gs while the gt were 485gs. I noticed a big difference when shooting boars with the shield.

[Lost Arra]

92 posts on this topic and I doubt one person has changed their mind about their hunting bow/arrow setup.    

[ChuckC]

Elknut.  

We may not agree on it all,  but thank you for sharing your results.  It was way more experimenting than I have done and it sure gives me more info to base my future choices on.

ChuckC

[elknut1]

Nice respectable comments from most, thank you! The other 4 individuals are down right rude & your comments are degrading & un-appreciated! There is no benefit at all with those types of comments. If you have something constructive to add, great, otherwise please keep them to yourselves!

  J from Denmark, very good thought, I will try it out & see what the outcome is! This will put the heavy carbon well over the 615grn mark but I'll give it a shot! (grin)

  Mint--what draw wt. bow are you shooting the 575grn arrow out of?

  This experimentation has nothing to do with light or heavy. It's what's the best wt choice for ones draw weight. I'm saying/finding that 48# draw with a 615grn arrow is too much therefore penetration is compromised. Not that 485grn should be used regardless of draw wt.--just want to be straight on that! (grin)

  By the way the out of the 3 arrows tested the one with the heaviest tip (175grn) out penetrated the other 2 even though all were 540grns, it won consistently by 1/2"---I figured I might as well test the 485grn one with 200grn up-front too out of the 55# bow it bested all 3 by 1 1/8" better penetration. Thanks!

  ElkNut1

[Lost Arra]

To clarify my comment because no disrespect was intended:

It appears this is a hard-headed bunch of folks whether you use 620gr arrows or 480gr arrows to kill big game. Once a bowhunter gets confidence in his setup he believes it's the best and it's tough to change his mind.

[IronCreekArcher]

This is great...As I have said previously a "scientific" approach would be better for this kind of testing.  All variables need to be accounted for and negated to be able to compare weights.  As others have mentioned there are many variables that need to be addressed before and accurate determination can be made.  Arrow weight can be the only variable in the equation.  Shaft diameter, poundage of bow, target consistency, distance, broadhead design etc. all NEED to be the SAME before one can even think about making a claim about arrow penetration.  The rules of science and physics require it...its not a scientific or physics "suggestion" they are rules for a reason.

[James Wrenn]

You guys keep doing test and crunching numbers and maybe one day we will be able to get 4 holes with an arrow instead of two.I am all for that.  

[IronCreekArcher]

 ...I love it James...right on!!

[nkw880]

i know one thing i bet alot of people didnt even know what foc was until recent times, elknut has very good points:
go get a 35 pound bow and light arrow and go shoot a deer or elk i bet you that your arrow will pass right through it. now use a heavier arrow and its not going to be the same its all about setup i could take an arrow weight it in the back of the shaft and its going to penetrate the same because no mater what you are going to still hav ethe same arrow mass whether it is in the front or the back
shoot what you like and stop worrying about penetration and worry about shot placement