Arrow crafting materials & F.O.C.

[Jaenak]

As scattered as my brain gets sometimes I've got a train of thought going here and I could use some input from those wiser than me.

I was thinking on the topic of making my own arrows.  One thing I was wondering was noise.  I know aluminum arrows almost sing all the way to their target.  They vibrate nicely and there's nothing to absorb the sound.  Wooden arrows vibrate too but the wood itself absorbs vibration so it dampens any vibrations and flies to its target relatively quietly.  But what is carbon like?  I know its not very traditional-ish but I'm looking at fiddling with a couple arrow materials.  Does carbon dampen the vibrations from the bow or does it just reverberate like the wood?  Is it the same as aluminum or quieter than aluminum but louder than wood or something else?

Another thing I was wondering is availability.  I can buy wood shafts online, I can buy aluminum at any self respecting archery shop but carbon ... how easy (or not so easy) is carbon to obtain?

And lastly, (uh, what was that again...) foc.  If you're working with an aluminum shaft, you can get a light shaft with the correct spine, add a nock and fletching of the right sort, you add an insert or two, a heavy broadhead maybe even with a heavy adapter and you have a finished arrow with a high foc (assuming you put all the weight you couldn't stick into the front end into the shaft weight).  But with wood...tell me what you think of this setup.

*shaft type - hickory
*shaft diameter - 11/32"
*shaft cut length - 28" (26" draw length)
*spine weight - 40lbs (offset for heavy front end)
*shaft weight - 350 grains
*taper amount & style - 10" back taper 11/32" down to 5/16"
*right wing or left wing - 4 left wing 3"long x 1/2"high counterclockwise helical bananna cut feathers
*foc location - a goal of 20% - 25%
*finished arrow weight - 520 grain minimum to 560 grain maximum
*point weight - 190 grains (grizzly heads)

Okay, my question with this is keeping in mind that I have absolutely no idea what the foc would be on this setup, how could I increase the foc besides putting a really heavy footing on the front of the shaft?  Maybe making the shaft P.O.C. instead and the footing hickory or purple heart or something.  But is the footing the only way to increase the foc?  You can't add an insert or an adapter or anything so what do you do to increase foc on a wood arrow?

I'm done repeating myself now, thanks for the insight in advance.

   

[Bjorn]

Most Hickory shafts will weigh about 100 grains more than what you have planned. Cedar will give you that shaft weight. The set up you describe will have an FOC of 15%.
For max FOC you need a light shaft and a heavy point.
Bravehearted Archery sells a jig to add point weight inside the shaft. And you can foot with aluminum shafting and go to a screw in adapter for lots more weight up front. You will also need stiffer shafting.

[tg2nd]

Woody Weights

[wharvey]

Something else to think about, a few issue back there was an article in Traditional Bowhunter on quietening aluminum arrows. The author would shove the shafts through polystyrene such as found on cheap throwaway ice chests. According to him his arrows became as quiet as wood arrows.

[Jake Fr]

wow thats a lot to think about!! I think i would use P.O.C footed with purple hart or osage or some thing and have my spine go up to 45-50 rather than a 40-45 stilt 10" taper it though with your heavy broadheads and i have talked to lots of ppl about the whole left wing right wing thing and i think thats a personal pref thing i do like the 4 flech though

[Fletcher]

Jaenak, what bow and weight are you shooting?  40 lb is kinda light for a 550 gr arrow and like Bjorn said, hickory is likely to push you even higher than that.

Give us some info, and we should be able to give you some good options to look at.   Rick

[Jaenak]

Bjorn:  Thanks for the heads up with the weights of cedar and hickory, I didn't know that.  Also, thank you for telling me the F.O.C. of that setup, that gives me a figure to work with.  I've been wondering how to increase weight up front while decreasing weight in back.

tg2nd:  OMG!!  Those Woody Weights are sent from heaven.  With something like that I could decrease the shaft weight as far as possible to a setting just before I end up dragging down the spine with the shaft weight and I could achieve extreme F.O.C. with those.  I will DEFFINATELY be buying some of those!  Thanks SO much!

wharvey:  I never thought of doing that!  One ice chest from a small gas station convienence store would fill dozens of arrows if used properly.  And styrofoam would absorb vibrations nicely.

Jake Fr:  I read another thread on TradGang.com and someone explained that the whole left wing/right wing thing started way back in old days of yore.  The longbowmen in the king's army figured out that if someone shoots a longbow (that consequentially doesn't have an arrow shelf) right handed with the arrow off the finger, the right wing from a right handed shooter would dig into the finger upon release, ultimately cutting his finger.  The person posting in that thread tried it on his bow that didn't have an arrow rest and sliced his finger open.  So, if you shoot off an arrow shelf or with an arrow rest you can do which ever wing you want with which ever shooting hand but if you shoot the arrow off the finger or off the knuckle, to avoid injury, use a left wing with a right handed shooter and a right wing with a left handed shooter.  Then the feathers just slide right over the finger/knuckle without any pain or injury.

[Jaenak]

Fletcher:  I posted at the same time you did.  My bow is 60" long, with a 26" draw at 40lbs at 26".

[BernieH]

For best penetration with grizzly heads you'll need to use RW feathers.

[George D. Stout]

I don't know what aluminum arrows your shot, but mine are as quiet as any other material, so the implication that aluminum is noisy is not valid.  I use 2016 Easton Legacy and Gamegetter, 125 grain points and 25 grain inserts, so no EFOC on this guys arrows.  Thinking too much is not good for an archer....shooting with good form is.

[George D. Stout]

Okay....what's with the "can't edit" button?

[Jaenak]

I ran into the edit problem too.  I thought the edit button was the pencil on the sheet of paper next to the quotes on the top of my post but I clicked on it and it said only moderators can do that.  So, either I had the wrong button or something weird is going on.

BTW, the thread that's helped me the most with arrow building theory besides the ashby reports on penetration is this one:

 http://tradgang.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=print_topic;f=1;t=057257

I'm still making my way through it.  It's a really long thread and I have yet to reach the end of it.

[flint kemper]

George, the edit button is off until after the St. Judes Auction is over. Flint

[George D. Stout]

Gotcha flint.  Thank you.

[Jaenak]

I was looking at those Woody Weights, and I was wondering a couple things.  How light can you go with P.O.C. or Sitka Spruce?  What do those weigh and how light can you get a shaft of one of those at 27 inches?  I figure 27 inches because the woody weight would add that extra inch back.  Also, if I go with the lightest shaft I could go in one of those two woods and I add all the extra weight into the woody weight on the front, how high would I need to adjust the spine of the shaft to compensate for that woody weight?  What I'm asking is after everything is said and done, what would the lightest weight of the shaft be without sacrificing the proper spine rating for the woody weight?

Shaft Weight?
Shaft Spine?
Woody Weight ...uh...weight?

I've gotta go to bed now, my brain isn't letting anything make sense.  I'm looking for that nice balance between the three numbers but each of the three numbers relies on the others so I'm not sure how to figure them.

Also, all I can see is the suppliers offer 32 inch shafts and you cut them to length.  So when you order a shaft you order it by grains per inch right?  But if you've got to cut the shaft to length, you know the spine you want the shaft to end up at after you cut it but how do you know the spine it needs to be at 32 inches so as to get the proper spine after you cut it to length?

[Fletcher]

Spines for wood shafts are based on 28".  For each inch more or less, you add or subtract five pounds.  Normally when you order shafts, you will specify the spine you need and weight for a full length shaft.  If ordering arrows, order the finished weight and your fletcher will figure it from there.  Shooting 40 lb, you are gonna find your trajectory will fall off rapidly with arrows over 500 grains.  That is over 12 gr/lb.

Front loading woods can get confusing pretty fast and there seems to be a limit as to how far you can reasonably go.  You can figure on about five lbs more spine for each 30-50 grains of point weight.  Woody Weights not only add point weight, but length, too.  The bow's design, degree of center shot, string type, and shooter all play into the equation as well.  You can sometimes figure it all pretty close, but in the end you will have to experiment and tune to get things shooting right.  Good luck and keep us posted on how it is going.

[wharvey]

Thanks for the information about RW & LW Jaenak. I had heard that the wing should have been opposite the hand of the archer. Never knew why. (Also read the opposite!)

It really does seem to make little difference when shooting off the shelf but one of my bows, a Martin Hatfield positions my hand very high. If the brace height is set too low the feather does dig into my knuckle causing cuts.

Left wing can cause screw on points to unscrew.

[Jaenak]

Fletcher:  Thank you for the info,that helped quite a bit!

wharvey:  I've never personally seen anyone have their points unscrew unless they were already loose to begin with.  Theoretically if the arrow spins too fast in the wrong direction they would get loose but the tension of a tightened point should keep them tight against the spin of the arrow.  Besides, I always figured that if my arrow is spinning fast enough to unscrew my points it's spinning too fast and is creating excess noise, possibly decreasing my accuracy, and slowing down my arrow.  At that point I figure it's time to decrease the amount of spin the arrow is doing.


My last question is what is the common minimum grain weights for a Port Orford Cedar and Sitka Spruce shaft?  And what spine are the weights commonly accosiated with?  If anyone knows of a weight/spine comparison chart for these two woods it would answer this question and thensome.  However, all I've found is just a regular spine chart.

Thanks.

[Fletcher]

Mass weights of POC can vary quite a bit, I've had well over 150 gr variation within 100 of the same spine group, like 320-500 gr.  Sitka Spruce is much more consistent and is a little lighter than an average POC.  Fir, which I consider to be a very good arrow wood, also varies quite a bit and averages a little heavier than POC.  Mass weight tends to go up with spine, but there is no chart that I know of.

[flint kemper]

Jaenak, if you go to Surewood shafts website they have a chart under information that tells some raw shafts weights in various spine ranges of their fir shafts. Flint