xx75 "singing"

[buejeger]

Hi, my first post on this forum.
I am a long time archer with about 18 years experience shooting mostly compounds. In January I began shooting trad equipment seriously, starting with a martin Dreamcatcher, but swiftly moving on up to a Black Widow psaII 50# @ 28" I am drawing 28 1/2" (my compounds have never seen so little use,  )
I shoot cedar arrows out of it for competition (trad rules here in Norway, no carbons or ally) but I am travelling to Africa in August for 14 days bowhunting with both my widow and the compound. I will be hunting with woods but also decided to build a set of aluminium arrows. I have got them to be the same weight as the woods by adding tuning weights behind the insert and they are hitting the same spot as the woods...  so far so good....
However, my shooting buddy who will be joining me in Africa has noticed what can be best described as a "singing" sound from the 2216 xx75s when standing downrange, the woods are noticeably quieter with no such "singing"  it almost sounds like a kind of tuning fork resonance...  we have shot the same arrows out of his bow and the same sound, so it is not the bow...
Has anyone here had this experience? suggestions for solving it?  I have spent alot of time tuning and am getting great groups, having robin hoods at 20 and 25 yards, so I dont really want to change to carbons... and I love the xx75s for there resilience for stumpshooting and the like....  and I can practice with them without knackering up my matched sets of wood arrows that I have spent so long building, and then swap to woods just before a competition with no adjusting my gap....
regards,   Nathan

[Killdeer]

The only sounds that I am familiar with, regarding aluminum arrows, are the whine of the fletch when it is cut high (like the sound in the old Robin Hood movie) or the metallic rattle of a loose point. It could be that our descriptions might not exactly match each others' ears, so maybe check your points and use a little string wax or mild Lok-Tite to keep them from backing out.  See if that quiets your arrows' flights.

Oh, and welcome!        

Killdeer

[buejeger]

Thanks.
There is no loose point or insert, everything checked and double checked, the whine of the fletches can be heard on the wood arrows and the allys, and is not what I would call loud..  (5" shield cuts with some goodly helical)  and when I shhot identically fletched woods there is a dramatic difference in the sound...
I have never heard this sound before either, and I have shot ,ost types of arrows over the years...  

Nathan

[sweet old bill]

Is your setup of the bow shooting off the riser with a side plate and rug ? or is it a raised rest ? if it is the raised rest it could be the fletch / feather hiting the rest... I always put baby powder on the riser and then shoot one arrow to check for drag marks to see if the arrow shaft is hitting on the way out of the bow. I never had any noise that was different from a wood to alum shaft or carbon...I have had the noise of feathers as I shoot the big 5.5 inch bananna cut feathers.

Bill

[buejeger]

Yes, I should have said, I am shooting off the shelf with the widow calf hair rest and side plate, I am shooting perfect bare shafts and my arrow flight and group size out to 30 meters (about 35 yards) does not indicate shaft contact, also the same sound was witnessed when the arrows were shot from my shooting buddy's longbow...  
Its kinda hard to explain, but like a metallic "zing" kind of sound, metallic resonance, like a tuning fork almost..  really weird and I am afraid may be enough to spook game...

[SCATTERSHOT]

Try gluing the tuning weights into the adapter. Something's loose.

[buejeger]

Everything is glued in and solid folks! Trust me I have tried everything! Not the usual loose insert/point/weight sound..  really quite odd this one...

Nathan

[George D. Stout]

If anything it is probably the points turning, as scattershot alluded to.  I've shot aluminums for many a year and have not heard any noise like you speak of.

[JimB]

2216's sound very stiff for a 50# bow.Are you sure they aren't contacting the riser?

[Killdeer]

Wow, I missed the arrow shaft size. Those are way stiffer than I would imagine using. I would think 2016 would be more in line with the bow's weight.

I hear shafts "sing" when I clean them with alcohol before fletching, come to think of it. Like making a crystal glass sing when you run a wet finger around the rim.

Killdeer

[dragon rider]

You might be looking at the wrong end for your problem.  Any metal will "sing" at some pitch if it's vibrating. I'd double check my arrow nocks if I were you to be sure they were in the arrow tight and properly fitted to the string.  A little string torque or a loose fitting nock could set up a sympathetic vibration in the metal between the time you release and the time the arrow leaves the string, or at the departure point. If you have really hard plastic nocks, try switching to some of the more malleable plactic ones.  I could be all wet, but if it's happening on different bows, it's in the arrows and if it's not the front end, there's only so much left to look at.

[Broken Arrows]

I read on here that one of us would take a Styrofoam Ice chest and before putting the insert in the arrow he would fill the shaft with the Styrofoam by stabbing the chest this would take out the vibration.

Dave

[SCATTERSHOT]

I didn't look at the shaft size, either. 2216s spine at 80# or so, pretty stiff. Especially if you don't get all the way to 28 1/2"  on your draw.

[buejeger]

Thanks for all the replies.
I too am amazed at how stiff an arrow the widow likes, but this I am told is par for the course,
In my owners manual the bow spines at 75-80
I have made batches of wood arrows with spines from 70 to 80# and the group in 75-80 fly  and group absolutely the best.
Remember also that I am using a total point weight of 177 grains on 29" shafts. and the widow is cut past centre. which also requires a stiffer shaft.
Punch in the details in Eastons shaft selector
Recurve Bow, 51-55 pounds, 29" shaft and 150 grain point weight 2216 is right there...    
I have tuned this bow and then some. Bare shafts impact together with fletched shafts all the way out to 25 yards. I shoot at least 30 arrows a day... I cannot see any signs of the shaft impacting  with the riser.. I feel that "dragon rider" may be on to something with the vibration thing... like I said its kind of a singing sound. like a tuning fork...  but what is causing it... well I give up! The points are not loose... I use rubber o-rings behind my field points and broadheads. The tuning weights are screwed in hard and glued. (when they come loose they make a kind of click anyway) The nocks are super G nocks sitting in uni-bushings and they fit perfectly on the string....
I think I may just admit defeat on this one and try some easton fmj shafts with the brass hit inserts... I have worked out that I should get about the same weight as my woods with the brass inserts....

regards,  Nathan

[SCATTERSHOT]

That's a puzzler, for sure. Have you tried screwing in the points without the o rings?

[buejeger]

Yep, Its a real puzzler, in fact I didn't believe it at first.. coz when I shoot I cant hear it, so I went down range and got my buddy to shoot for me...  then I heard it, he shot the same arrow from his bow and I still heard it, I have shot all 12 alu shafts mixed in with a few woods, and with my buddy standing downrange with eyes closed he can tell which is which... it is that obvious...

[Stinger]

Are you shooting the same broadheads on both the woodies and the aluminums?  I didn't see that in your post.  I have shot some broadheads over the years that make more noise than others.

[shortstroke 91]

I hac the same problem with overspined arrows, they were hitting the riser and making a ringing sound like tapping a pipe with something hard. Try putting a bunch (350 grains) up front just to see if this is the case, that's how I figured it out.

[buejeger]

Stinger, yes same broadheads coz I am using silver flames with top hat adapters on the wood shafts, and silver flames with alu inserts with 20 grains extra weight behind the insert on the allus... giving me 125+32+20  177 on the alushafts and 125+40 = 165 on the wood shafts...  and I am getting both sets of arrows to group together, with field points or broadheads...

Short stroke, there is no indication of overspined arrows that I can see, arrow flight is just wonderful, bareshaft is perfect, field points and broadheads group together and my woods and xx75 group together, but you never know... I will knock up some shafts with heavier weights added just to see if it helps...  you never know!  and that would definitely be the cheaper solution!

regards, Nathan

[swampbuck]

Not that I can help you on this one but I do remember reading about the noise differance and that indeed somebody down range blind folded could tell the dif. I'm pretty sure it was somebodies wife or daughter that could easily pick the dif. up even though they were not experianced as an archer.I don't recall what mag I read that in but I do remember hearing of this before.

Sorry I can't help ya solve it...good luck