Another tuning question and frustration

[JSimon]

I've been trying to get to the bottom of why my Bear Weatherest seems to wear out so fast. So, I ordered some 175, 200, and 250 grain field points to play around with bare shafting them.

I'm right handed and currently shooting CX 250's cut to 31.75" long with 225 grains up front (125 grain point and 100 grain inserts). Those seem to be giving me a weak spine indication. So, today I shot the 175's and 250's and they seemed to impact at nearly the same location as the 125 grain points (about 18" to the right of my fletched shafts at 20 yards or so). I did notice that the fletched arrows with 250 grain points seemed to kick left more than the 125 grain points. I'm just surprised that such a heavier point weight didn't really fly that much worse than the 125's.

I'm now wondering if I just pluck the string really bad or something which causes the bare shafts to always impact to the right of my fletched shafts no matter what point weight I use. Any thoughts? I'm also showing wear marks on my shelf, so maybe raising the nock point would help that? The bare and fletched shafts are hitting good up/down though.

I suppose I'll try removing the 100 grain inserts and cutting the arrows down a bit more, or installing the aluminum inserts. My fletched arrows seem to be flying good as they are, and I've been shooting these for a year, but wearing a groove in my stick-on rest after only a couple of days shooting is bugging me.

[xtrema312]

What is your bow weight and draw length?  

A bad release will do what you are saying also.  I always shoot a bare shaft in every practice group to check my release.

[30coupe]

We need more info if we are to be of any assistance to you: bow specs, draw length (yours), etc.

If you pluck the string all the time, your fletched arrows will go right at 20 yards (or less) too. Trust me on this one. I am still trying to eliminate the occasional pluck.

Are your wear marks just on the shelf? If so, you may need to move your nock point. If they are on the shield, you have a spine issue.

Give us some more info and we'll try to help.

Russ

[52 bow]

Play around with your brace ht. My longbow shoots great at 7.5" but shoots great groups at 6.5" but 4" high and 5" to right.7.5 prints right where I'm looking.

[JSimon]

Thanks guys. My bow is a Quinn Stallion 50lb.@28" and I draw just under 30". The bow is cut 5/16" past center, but I'm using a Bear Weatherrest with both pieces of adhesive foam behind the rest to push it out a bit more. I was previously using the single piece of adhesive that comes on the rest, but I practically wore right through the strike plate on the rest in a summers worth of shooting last year. When I replaced the rest this spring I used both pieces of foam that come with the rest since everything I do seems to indicate a weak shaft. I also glued a thin piece of leather over the strike plate portion of the rest to help prolong the life.

My fletched shafts actually fly pretty good and I'd say I'm consistently hitting a 6" circle at 18-20 yards and I don't seem to be hitting more left or right. I know the carbon arrows are abrasive, but it seems like with proper paradox, the arrow shouldn't be wearing the rest so much. But, it also seems like the specs on my setup shouldn't be too far off for a decent tune. I appreciate the help.

[30coupe]

The impact point is one thing, how they get there is another. Are the bare shafts flying nock left when you shoot them at 20 yards? That would indicate either a weak spine or too stiff and contact with the strike plate is kicking the back of the arrow left (this is kind of my suspicion as indicated by the wear on your strike plate).

Did you have your draw measured on THIS bow or are you going by what you drew with a compound? Traditional bows tend to mean about 1 1/2 inches less draw, which would put you around 52 pounds...250's would be kind of stiff, although you do have them front loaded...just thinking out loud here...not making assumptions, but trying to give you some things to contemplate.

Try taking the 100 grain inserts out and shooting with standard inserts and 125 grain points. They sure shouldn't be weak then. If they still go right, you may want to try some weaker shafts. Loading them heavy didn't seem to help, maybe you need to go the other way and see what happens.

[JSimon]

Yeah, I measured my draw using a clothes pin on an arrow, at the front of the riser. I agree. It makes sense to me that a stiff arrow would drag more on the arrow rest causing the wear issue. I suspected that loading up the front more would have given me better results. I was surprised the 350 grains up front did not fly radically different than 225, but I still consider myself new at all of this.

I think I will go the other way with extremely light point weight and see what happens. Hopefully I can get the bare shafts to do something different and kick right or impact left. Either way I'm learning something, which is good. I'm kind of a perfectionist and it just bothers me knowing something is not adding up. I want to get my setup as tuned as I can so I can focus more on my shooting.

[Bowmania]

I would need to know the spine of a 250.  When your out 18 inches to the right that's pretty weak.  If those arrows are .500 I'd build out the rest.  

Here's a tip for bare shafting.  Since your playing with a new arrow combination you don't know where it's going to shoot.  That's why everyone tells you to compare the groups.  Here's a way to figure it out in 2 shots.  Take a golf ball and place if front of the target 6 feet for a 20 yard shot.  That's for my anchor.  If you anchor under your eye or 3 under you may have to move the golf ball on to the target.  Do this by super gluing a tee to the ball and sticking it in the target.  What your trying to do is put the point of the arrow on the golf ball and shoot and hit the center of the target.  Move the golf ball so that happens.  Shoot the fletched shaft first and then the bare.  You know if you shot with good form.  If one was bad shoot that one again.  Depending on where the arrows hit you know if your stiff or weak or on.  I takes the aiming with the mind out of the equation.  Any of us with experience in bare shafting know how important that can be.

I actually shoot two days before I make a change when I get close.  If I get the same results two days in a row I know I can cut.  That celophane to hold the incert in (and a bag target) works great.

Bowmania

[Stone Knife]

Not to confuse this issue, but if you want to shoot off an elevated rest have you thought about trying a feather rest, or a flipper rest? I shoot vanes off a Flipper II with a wal-mart felt furniture pad as a side plate, this setup wears like iron.

[JSimon]

Originally posted by Stone Knife:
Not to confuse this issue, but if you want to shoot off an elevated rest have you thought about trying a feather rest, or a flipper rest? I shoot vanes off a Flipper II with a wal-mart felt furniture pad as a side plate, this setup wears like iron.

I think I'm going to eventually switch to a more durable rest, so I at least don't have to worry about it. Most people tend to think that the side plate wear and fletching contact indicate too stiff of a spine. How likely is it that a weak spine would cause this side plate wear?

Here's a pic of what I'm talking about. This is from roughly a year of shooting and I don't shoot everyday or anything. You can see some fletching contact on the shelf too and the flipper portion of the rest is also worn pretty bad. I shoot three under and you can tell by the angle of the groove that my nock point is fairly high as well.
   

[JSimon]

Bowmania, good tip on removing some of the human variable from the tuning process. I'm going to give the golf ball thing a try.

[James Wrenn]

Some shafts just wear more than others too.If you are shooting heritage shafts or camo shafts the  finish contributes to it.Giving any of them a good coat of car wax will quieten them down and also cut down on rest wear.Can't help with the tuneing without being there.

[Jeff Strubberg]

You can do the same thing by sticking a piece of weatherstiping tape to the uppar part of your sight window and usign a stick pin as a temporary sight pin.  Comes off easy when you are done and is quick to adjust.

From that wear, I'm guessing you are way, way stiff and very nock high.  Do you shoot split finger or three under?

[JSimon]

I shoot 3 under. Yeah, it seems that most people think I'm way to stiff, but I put 350 grains up front on a 31.75" CX Heritage 250 shooting around 54 pounds or so at my draw length, and I got basically the same results as shooting 225 grains up front. My bare shafts probably impacted a bit more right with the 350 grains up front and I noticed a left kick on my fletched shafts with 350 that I can't see with only 225 up front.

I also plugged all of my numbers into the dynamic spine calculator and that also says my shafts are too weak. Here's a thread I started a while back as I began trying to figure this out.
 http://tradgang.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=1;t=073388

Maybe I'm overthinking everything and my shafts are just that abrasive as James mentioned. Oh well, I'll figure it out eventually! I appreciate all of the ideas.

[Jeff Strubberg]

I shoot CX250's off of a rug rest.  I don't come anywhere close to that type of wear after three years on the same rest.

Something is seriously wrong and I have never seen a weak shaft dig into a rest like that.

[Don Baker]

It looks to me like you may still be too far to the right with your rest, so that the arrow has actually crossed the center line of the shelf which will give you all kinds of trouble-I would build that side plate out even further and try some more testing.
Don

[JSimon]

Well, now I'm thoroughly confused. I peeled the rest off and added several layers of foam tape pushing the rest out around 3/8" more than it was. The bare shafts still impacted to the right on the fletched arrows. My groups were good too. At this point I'm trying to do everything I can to get a stiff arrow indication as a sanity check, but I'm having no luck. I even removed the field point altogether and just shot bare shafts with the 100 grain insert in. These dove down and to the right. I'm not real sure where to go from here. Going from 350 grains up front to only the 100 grain insert and the arrows are doing basically the same thing to varying degrees. Moving the shelf out didn't really do anything either. I would say maybe I just have terrible form, but if that was the case, it seems like my arrows wouldn't group very well.

[Don Baker]

Jeff,
What is your nock point set at?
I have a Quinn and shoot 3-under as well.
First-try putting a piece of velcro over that nasty groove in the weather rest.
Next, set your nock point at 5/8" and use a 100 grain point on the arrow.
Instead of shooting groups with the fletched arrows, shoot the bare shaft alone several times and WATCH the flight of the arrow at 20 yards or a little more, as long as it is safe to do so.
Waiting for the results!
Don

[JSimon]

Thanks Don. I actually replaced the Weatherrest, so the one I have now doesn't have the groove. I tore it off last night and added some adhesive foam to push the rest way out. I'll move it back to a more reasonable distance from the aluminum (probably two of the adhesive foam that comes with the rest. That would push the rest out from the bow about 1/8" or so, I think). My nock point is currently at 11/16", so it is in the ball park for 3 under I think. I have a tie on nock right now, but I'm going to cut that off and use a brass nock so I can move it easier until I get it figured out. I'll let you know how the arrows shoot with a 100 grain point.

[Stone Knife]

How high is your nock point?