Choose your weapon....?

[snag]

My state has the rifle draw before the deadline for OTC archery tags. So there is a segment of rifle hunters who if they don't draw they just pick up a bow and give it a go. What do you think about this? Does your state allow this?
This is my take on it:
1)There is a significant number of these guys who are not skilled with a bow because of lack of practice. This can result in a higher wounding rate and the loss of the animal...making us archers look bad, but more importantly it is unethical hunting!  No matter what weapon you hunt with you need to be able to make a clean kill...I know, it is not a perfect world. But you should try, to the best of your ability, to be as skilled as you can. In Europe there are countries that actually have you go through a shooting test.
2)It artifically inflates our numbers which can effect our season length or the ability to expand our opportunities as archers. These opportunities could include more "traditional only hunts".

What are our thoughts?

[saltwatertom]

I agree with you POV and I think it is mostly because of wheelie bows. I'm not pointing at any individuals, but I do think that training wheels were the worst thing to ever happen to archery.
   To hunt here in archery "zones" or "seasons" I had to pass the internationaly accepted test, it probly should be that way every where, wheels or not.

JMHO and $.02

[Orion]

I agree with the points you make.  Your wildlife agency is no doubt doing it to garner more revenue.

[Frenchymanny]

Same here, in Quebec to hunt with the bow you have to succeed at a bow ability test.
The down side: more crossbows during the "archery" season, and too many deer wounded by a bolt shot wayyyyy too far

F-Manny

[La. bowhunter]

Here in La. we dont have to draw for anything we buy all of ours OTC also our archery only season has been whittled down to almost nothing and we have to share it with crossbows. The wildlife depts. throughout the nation are trying to make it easier and easier to kill deer with less and less work and maybe they are doing the right thing but I dont think so. New hunters today dont know what a challenge is anymore its all about killing something. I enjoy my trad hunting and hunt with a recurve bow exclusively but it is my choice and I have to be willing to share the woods with gun hunters.

[McDave]

I would like to see more responsible bow hunters in the field.  On the other hand, I'd hate to see a test that eliminated one bow hunter who knew he could get every shot in the kill zone at 15 yards, so never shot at anything further than 15 yards and killed every animal he ever shot at, but passed another bow hunter who shoots pretty good out to 50 yards, but will take low-percentage shots at anything he thinks might be in range.  I don't know of any test that would separate the two, other than maybe a lie detector test, because everybody is going to say the right thing and then do whatever it is that they want to do when they get out in the field.  A test might eliminate those who don't have any business shooting at anything other than a target, but it won't eliminate those who can shoot well but will take low-percentage shots.

[snag]

La. bowhunter, the reason to make it easier to kill deer is so they will sell more tags. It's all about the money. I am sorry to hear that they have lumped crossbows in with your archery season! That is not right. A mechanical triggered weapon that shoots "bolts"...where's the arrow?

McDave, I hear ya. I'm not saying we should have shooting tests. But I was just illustrating the extremes. But I do think there should be a devotion to knowing your weapon's capabilities and your own. If I were to rifle hunt I would practice and know at what range I am capable of killing an animal at. It should be no different for bows.

[Ray_G]

David,

I agree with McDave (Hi Dave) on this one.  I have a hard time swallowing more tests and limits based on some bureaucrats standards and where that may lead to.

Over here in Idaho, at least ten years ago, our Fish & Game looked at the issues of people management and the complaint of many regarding unsuccessful rifle hunters going on to muzzleloaders or bowhunting during those seasons and not being proficient with them.  They were receiving reports of a lot of wounding with both.  One of the concepts was a "choose your weapon" tag to keep those who are proficient within their limits.  It was never implemented.

It is a hard thing to legislate morality and I think that is where being proficient with any weapon to kill game lies.  Too many people today want to kill and not hunt.

Ray

[Scott S.]

Snag, I feel I need to comment on your use of the term "unethical hunting."  I believe the better designation is "unethical hunter."  They will exhibit behavior we deem unethical regardless of weapon.  I have seen too many "hunters" who believe the end justifies the means--they hunt out of season, poach on other's land, and disregard any DNR regulation they feel limits their chances of a kill.  I have no room for them in my camp.

[straitera]

What's ethical to one may not be to another. Then there are the bloodsport slobbers who make a mockery of any situation regardless of weapon. Hunting ethics start with respect for the animal. That just means doing whatever necessary to insure to the best of your ability, shot selection, setup, practice/confidence, woodskills, & tracking & recovery. It's a reverence each of us must carry in their own way.

[STEVE R.]

Crossbows have been around for some time. They have made them more atractive but they are still cumbersome to hunt with. I would not trade my long bow for one. I really think that the crossbow is a fad and will die off after awhile. I do not think there is much to worry about. I mean really think about draging one of those things around through the thickets or try to put a stalk on some game. Come on guys get real.Just my opinion.

[wtpops]

OTC?

Most guys now a days are two season hunters, they pic up there wheelie bow for the start of the season and pick up the gun for the next. you can be good with both.

If OTC is some kind of trad only tag then i kind of agree with you at heart but as a hunter we this needs to come from within not regulated by big brother.

Okalahoma has a trad only tag and 2 days before the season starts right after the draw the archery shops have a run on recurves and 3 arrows then the bows are taken back at a discounted price and sold next season along with another 3 arrows.

[twitchstick]

In utah we have the same problem.May of the rifle units may take 2 to 3 years to draw.Archery tags left over will sell out in hours.And we have another problem,which utah has a program called the dedicated hunter.It allows a hunter to hunt archery black powder and rifle seasons.The program is intended for trophy hunters that are more respossible,they donate time of wildlife projects ect.Alot of people buy their way out of the work hours.Some are really good people and should have those rights but most only shoot their bow a day before the hunt and just scout and crowde up the archery hunt.The archery stores sell more bow in the two weeks prior to bow season then all year long.Many bow hunters and many U.B.A members are pushing for some kind of shooting test and ethics program.But utah is more interested in selling high dallor tags( 17,000 to 100,000 )tags so you can run down your spider bull with hellicopers and 20 to 30 guys.Sorry just rambling with anger.I do understand there is a nation bowhunter education program, maybe some day it will be in all states.

[huntindad]

All who have posted on this thread make valid points and are right to be disappointed in some of the people who tend to give the rest a bad name.I tend to agree with those that say we can't legislate morality.It shows not only in this case but in all wrinkles of society as well.I grew up in Northern California just 15 miles from the Oregon border on the coast in a small town and I have archery hunted since 1983 I think I only missed one season in the years since and I also rifle hunt every season since 1981 when I was 12 years old.All tags back then were good for bow and gun seasons now just the northwestern tags are and they are over the counter and you can get two.I guess my point is many of us are raising young hunters and that is all about opportunity the more you take them the harder those woods pull them back.I don't think there should be crossbows in archery seasons but if you create a new season for them then when do the deer get a break?Maybe put them in muzzleloader hunts I don't know.I apply me and my wife and my older kids to 2 or 3 states a year besides my own and again its all about opportunity if we are not successful as with this year we will buy archery in Oregon (sorry snag) and over the counter general in Idaho which we might bow hunt but will definitely rifle hunt.I teach my kids to respect the game we hunt and it seems to be sticking.Even though I have spent more of my hunting with a rifle I prepare for archery season far more with practice usually beginning as soon as it quits raining cats and dogs and don't stop when the season starts I think this rubs off on kids and that is how we effect change.Sorry for long post and hope I didn' put ya to sleep or lose ya.Bill

[L. E. Carroll]

Hi all,
Here's what we have in Washington,  You must choose a hunting method before season and since we have several great draw hunt's, such as around MT St Helens.  If you want to apply for one of these draw hunts, archery or any other means to try for one of these tags [ during their approiate seasons] you "Must Buy" your archery, muzzle loader or Modern rifle tags and application form for special hunt way before the season.... These have to be submitted very early as drawings are in June.  If unsuccesfull in the draws you can not change your tags.                

As a note for many who are lucky enough to get several deer tags each year, we as a rule only get 1 Deer and 1 elk tag and therefore, must choose our hunting method very carefully. Bear and Cougar are different as I think we can get 2 or 3 as we have a big bear and cougar population that is becomming a problem now that the Liberals in the Seattle area have got hound hunting and baiting stopped                

I was brought into hunting at the ripe old age of 8 way back in 1959 when it was possible to use anything during the appropriate season [ modern rife, muzzle loader, or archery ] and we did.  However, I agree there were lots of guys who had no business shooting at any type of Big game with a bow [ including myself until after comming back from Viet Nam and becomming proficient with my archery gear].  At that time I pretty much put away my firearms and have been using my Trad stuff from then then until  now, and will continue in the future for as long as I can keep shooting hunting weight bows and hitting where I'm looking].

I must admit I was really up-set with the game dept. when they made us "Choose"         :mad:         .  However, as the years have passed I have come to appreciate their regulations.  I hunt as much as time and money will allow, and have never had to deal with much overcrowding during archery season on either side of the state.

I think I could even support a "Profiency Test" as long as it was done at reasonable hunting ranges. [In my opinion that being 20 yards or less, 8 out of 10 arrows in a 12" paper plate] I feel that would certainly cut down on some of the poor shots made on our Wonderful wildlife.

Just the opinion of an "Old Man" [ hope no one will  jump all over me for having one ]          

[FubarFred]

Draws? Don't understand them here in MD. Archery season goes from 15 Sept to 31 Jan for whitetail. Thats with a bow of your choice. I used a xbow for a couple yrs after I was broke up pretty bad. Hated that big cumbersome pos, but it got me in the woods. You need a hunter safety course and can not hunt with a bow during the first days of each season, i.e. gun and blackpowder. Kill as many does as you see fit in a couple counties. Although being in the woods during the first couple days of gun season can be scarey. Some gun hunters don't know the difference between orange and deer brown. There are also several bow only areas to hunt.

[Broken Arrows]

I would like to see trad archery only areas here in Washington because I have see a large increase in compound bow hunters and most I talk with do not have a problem with shoot out to 60 yards on any type of game they see.with the increase in our states population we have also lost the number of days we can hunt and one of the best areas for Elk went to true spike only hunts no mater what type of weapon you use this is do to a large tribal kill in the area for large bulls with no set hunting season the number of archery kill in that area in 2007 was 19 and with rifle it was 149 at the time it was spike only.Really the bottom line I love archery so I tend to be byes.

[Dave Bulla]

Boy, that's a toughie.....

My own personal experience comes strictly from whitetail country and I've never had to deal with either applying for a draw tag or choosing a weapon before a season.  I'd rather not have to do either.  

There a lot of good points above but maybe I'm just naturally optimistic because I don't completely understand all the negatives.  I'd like to think that a certain percentage of guys who buy a bow just before the season so they can hunt more will experience a sort of epiphany like many of us have and realize that trad bows are just FUN, but that they also require a certain amount of dedication.  Sure I hate to see guys show up at the range two or three days before the season starts with a bow still in the plastic carton to start "sighting it in" so they can hunt but how may of these guys simply don't know any better?  How many of us started out in a similar way?  Sort of a "Hey son, I bought you a bow so you can bowhunt if you want.  Uhm, no I don't know much about them but just go shoot and you'll figure it out.  Looks like they've got directions in the box."  How many kids like this could WE as a group, coach or mentor into a better attitude?  I see it as being no different than someone who has never hunted anything deciding to buy a gun and give it a try.  The desire to hunt is there, they just need some guidance from some of us with a little more experience.  Lord knows, they certainly can't find it on tv or in most of the magazines.

Of course, I'll readily admit that there are and always will be bad examples to be found but I like to think that most of the guys who appear to be hunting idiots are just decent guys lacking some proper guidance.

[2-BIG]

Sad to say but the compound bow has a lot to do with this situation. I saw a show on the Outdoor channel the other day and there was a UFC fighter with a big buck he shot with a compound. He was interviewed and he said," I just shot a bow for the first time today. I took 12 shots and then went hunting and killed this buck."
And some wonder why the crossbow is so easily being placed in archery season in states where they were never legal before.    :(

[ChristopherO]

Having started hunting in Ohio nearly 2 dozen years ago the crossbow was always legal during this time frame.  Funny thing is, though, that the deer herd just keeps getting bigger.  They estimate 600,000 plus for this coming season.  
I was given a broken Barnett Demon 21 years ago and sold about 1000 blackpowder conicals I had cast to buy the parts to fix it.  It got me into the field because I knew I wasn't good enough to hunt with a traditional bow.  With one child on the way and 4 more to soon follow and the strong desire to hunt it would do just fine.  During all the time spent hunting with it I've yet to stumble upon a deer left to rot with a crossbow bolt sticking out of it.  Only stumbled upon those fresh deer I had shot with a bolt sticking out of it.  Actually, most of the time the boldt had sliced clean through the animal.  It is a tool and it works.  
I can believe a man can shoot a compound bow a dozen times and be ready to hunt with it.  With all the bells and whistles it is akin to shooting a 22 rifle.  If you've practiced enough with a rifle you can easily be proficient with a compound, quickly.  They are a tool and they work.
I've always wanted to be an archer, though, so the last 3 years have been spent without the guns and crossbow.  The bows, either primative or traditional, are my sole pursue now.  I believe I can be proficient with it at this point, too, though it has taken a lot of work.  They are tools and they work.  But they are the type of tools we want to use.
I hate to break this to you gentlemen but we live in an instant gratification society.  Crossbows and compounds are here to stay.  On top of that game laws don't revolve around sticks and strings.  Our enjoyment does but those who need to keep the legislators and insurance companies from breathing down their necks are constantly looking for more ways to put boots in the field and tags on the growing deer, or whatever else, population.
And, when my son or daughter, who doesn't shoot a traditional bow well enough to hunt with, wants to hunt with me I will gladly hand them the old Barnett Demon whilst a slender piece of wood is held in mind and we will go to the woods to make a good time of it.  Ethically, at that.