Choose your weapon....?

[tmccall]

Originally posted by ChristopherO:
Having started hunting in Ohio nearly 2 dozen years ago the crossbow was always legal during this time frame.  Funny thing is, though, that the deer herd just keeps getting bigger.  They estimate 600,000 plus for this coming season.  
I was given a broken Barnett Demon 21 years ago and sold about 1000 blackpowder conicals I had cast to buy the parts to fix it.  It got me into the field because I knew I wasn't good enough to hunt with a traditional bow.  With one child on the way and 4 more to soon follow and the strong desire to hunt it would do just fine.  During all the time spent hunting with it I've yet to stumble upon a deer left to rot with a crossbow bolt sticking out of it.  Only stumbled upon those fresh deer I had shot with a bolt sticking out of it.  Actually, most of the time the boldt had sliced clean through the animal.  It is a tool and it works.  
I can believe a man can shoot a compound bow a dozen times and be ready to hunt with it.  With all the bells and whistles it is akin to shooting a 22 rifle.  If you've practiced enough with a rifle you can easily be proficient with a compound, quickly.  They are a tool and they work.
I've always wanted to be an archer, though, so the last 3 years have been spent without the guns and crossbow.  The bows, either primative or traditional, are my sole pursue now.  I believe I can be proficient with it at this point, too, though it has taken a lot of work.  They are tools and they work.  But they are the type of tools we want to use.
I hate to break this to you gentlemen but we live in an instant gratification society.  Crossbows and compounds are here to stay.  On top of that game laws don't revolve around sticks and strings.  Our enjoyment does but those who need to keep the legislators and insurance companies from breathing down their necks are constantly looking for more ways to put boots in the field and tags on the growing deer, or whatever else, population.
And, when my son or daughter, who doesn't shoot a traditional bow well enough to hunt with, wants to hunt with me I will gladly hand them the old Barnett Demon whilst a slender piece of wood is held in mind and we will go to the woods to make a good time of it.  Ethically, at that.

Good post.

[snag]

I would have to think that trad archers kill less animals because of our numbers and our need to get closer to our prey. Then why should we have to be lumped into a season that is fulled with compounds and in some states crossbows? If we have guys who are not devoted to archery hunting with a bow is that hindering our ability to get more "trad seasons"?

[FubarFred]

When we get traditional only seasons, the wheelie folks are going to want theirs, thus shortening the hunting times. The x-bow folks will then want theirs, the primitive rifles, the high power guns and shot guns. Where will it end? How about the anti's seeing all this in house bickering going on and starts anew with their type of BS. You hunt with what you hunt with. Don't expect that guy next to you to agree with you, just be happy that you are allowed to enjoy what you do. Like it? Heck no, but put up with it, 'tis a lot better'n not being able to at all.

[snag]

We all have our own seasons now in Oregon. The muzzeloaders have theirs, the rifles theirs, and the archers theirs. So the rifle (modern rifles and muzzleloaders) already have divided seasons. You have modern rifles and primitive rifles seasons here in Oregon. We have modern bows in compounds and primitive in recurves, LBs and selfbows. We are not going to kill more animals by designating time and area for "trad only" hunts. Why not have designated trad only hunts?

[L. E. Carroll]

Actually, I think you do have a really good "trad only" hunt in SE Oregon ? I am not positive but I'm pretty sure I've "heard' of one down around Kalamath Falls?  I may be wrong and if so please disregard.

I have not hunted Oregon for years back when I used to live in Scappoose and St. Helens........I do know that lots had changed since then.

Gene  

[FerretWYO]

I caution you to think of one thing when you ask to "divide your season". In some statesthere are a muzzle loader season and a modern rifle type season. In many cases this was something that the muzzle loader hunters wanted. What they did not realize was that they now only have as little as a week in some places to hunt. I would not be suprised if you did not see a similar thing happen. Believe it or not we are still out numbered as people who choose to shoot traditional equiptment by those who choose to shoot compunds. We would get the short end of that stick.

I understand the ethics or bad ethics that many have mentioned here. We see it in wyoming also. I personally have seeen it happen with a moose hunter a few years back. They get a once in a lifetime tag and want to TRY it with a bow. I even saw one person screwing broadheads out of the box onto arrows with walmart stickers still attatched and lobing them at a terrific bull moose nearly 90 yards away. There are a few elk areas here that are now a choose your weapon tag.

IMOP the answer does not lie in separate seasons but rather in education. It was mentioned here about the shooting test and McDave made what i think is a very valid point about ruling out an archer who followed the thought of good ethics. however if it was mandatory that each person took the bowhunter education class before being allowed to hunt with a bow a lot of those last minute tag and bow buyers would be out of luck.

Some states have this requirment already maybe a few from those areas could chime in here.

[huntindad]

Oregon does have an excellent trad only mule deer hunt and an area for deer and elk that the first part of the season is for trad and then the remainder is for the wheelies.I think FerretWYO nailed it there is only a limited amount of time in the year to hunt the animals we do without taking too much advantage of the rut ,the winter range and summertime in which the deer and elk are feeding constantly and their antlers are tender so they stay out of cover(I hunt only out west so your area of the world may have its own limitations).If everyone gets their own season then the seasons get shortened and the animals need some breaks.Then who gets the better times (rut,summertime etc.) and who gets the worse times I think we all know where trad archers fall in these groups.As for ethics you can't ram that down someones throat you have to lead by example and hope it catches on but many people just are not capable of accepting the idea.ChistopherO good post although crossbows are not legal here if they were there is probably some point in my life that I would have used one, although that time is not now for me.Bill

[twitchstick]

I think that education and being good example to other hunters may be our best option.Hunting is a lifestyle that is getting harder to do.I guess it will be up to use to preserve that right.I am not one to preach to someone how and when to hunt but maybe we will just have to guide others along the way.  

[Dave Bulla]

One other point, don't most states already allow the use of a lesser weapon in just about any season?  Here in MO you can use a trad bow in bow season or gun season.  You can use a bow, pistol or muzzle loader in gun season because they are "lesser weapons".  Is it really so bad to hunt along with someone else using a different weapon?  Heck, I grew up in Pennsylvania where there are over a million hunters in the woods on the first day of rifle season and I never felt like I was in an unsafe situation.  My only complaint about bow hunting in their gun season (which I've done) is having to wear hunter orange and that is only because it feels goofy but I've many times had deer in bow range while wearing nearly head to toe orange so it can be done, even from the ground.  I certainly wouldn't hunt during gun season without it!

The "lesser weapon" law to me is the real "choose your weapon" situation.  What I would be against is having to choose it up front and stick to it.  Lets face it, a BUNCH of us live were deer hunting (especially on public land) is a hit or miss proposition and some of us hunt where it can be tough to even see a deer.  Also, a lot of guys hunt just as much for the meat as for the experience and are not out there just to listen to the birds chirp.  

Ever been in a situation where deer meat in the freezer makes a real difference in your grocery budget???  I currently don't have a job at the moment but I've got some tests and interviews coming up that I'm confident will come through with a solid offer long before the season starts but what about someone who happens to be hurting financially while season is open?  I can't begrudge a guy trying to bow hunt or gun hunt to feed his family even if he has had little time to learn how.  I would just hope that he has sense enough to know his limitations.  I certainly understand the need that sometimes arises to put down the bow and get serious about getting meat in the freezer with a rifle.  Way off topic?  Maybe but my whole point is the right to make the choice personally within the bounds of the law.  If the law says all you have to do to bowhunt is buy a license then that's the law.  I don't think there is a state in the country that does not require a general hunter education certification for people under a certain age and some states have darned good programs.  Sadly, many states have no mandatory bow hunter education and I think that maybe that would be a good idea since often the general course does not cover archery very well.  What about taking your kids hunting with you?  Ever tried to bow hunt for real with a 5 year old tagging along?  Ain't gonna happen unless you get awfully lucky and have an exceptionally well behaved kid.  Most times it just turns into a fun walk in the woods.  But take your kid gun hunting and you can watch a deer from a distance, let your KID watch too and actually make a good shot while your kid is along.  I don't want to have to choose the bow in advance because I like to bow hunt then not be able to pick up the rifle and hunt with one of my kids later in the year.

However, it's like I said above, I also feel it's our responsibility as bow hunters to sort of police our own ranks and if you find someone who seems headed down the path towards poor ethics, talk to them.  I have, and often found that they simply didn't know much better and were more than willing to listen to someone who was able to help.  Especially if the "help" was not begun in the form of a criticism or smart a$$ comment.

I certainly understand the need that sometimes arises to put down the bow and get serious about getting meat in the freezer.  If anyone wants a law that forces you to choose your weapon in advance, all I can say is be careful what you wish for.  Just because you only hunt for fun today doesn't mean you won't be hunting because you are hungry in the future.

[George D. Stout]

Every year, near my rural home, one can spend days in the woods and not encounter another bowhunter.  And this is in Pennsylvania, with the 2nd most hunters in North America...only Texas has more.  Frankly, I don't even see the crossbows as an intrusion that will make an impact, and our hunter numbers have gone down over the years.

Fact is boys and girls, over 90% of the ones using crossbows here in this coming season will be those who already shoot compound bows...that is been ascertained through surveys around the state.  The hunter numbers will not jump as much as you think in that respect.

As far as separating seasons, that's probably a really bad idea considering hunter numbers nationwide are declining.  I would not spend my time lobbying for a separation of equipment.

[HATCHCHASER]

Good post ChristopherO.  I agree whole heartedly.  

"take your kids hunting and you won't have to hunt your kids".

On the other hand I would like to see a traditional archery only season.  I do not belieive that crossbows or compounds for that matter should be considered archery equipment.

[Red Boar]

Originally posted by Scott S.:
Snag, I feel I need to comment on your use of the term "unethical hunting."  I believe the better designation is "unethical hunter."  They will exhibit behavior we deem unethical regardless of weapon.  I have seen too many "hunters" who believe the end justifies the means--they hunt out of season, poach on other's land, and disregard any DNR regulation they feel limits their chances of a kill.  I have no room for them in my camp.

Agree...ethical hunting/hunter is not a product of the weapon.  I could/still can shoot bullet holes with my compound out to 50 yards.  As a new trad hunter, my wounding rates will most likely be higher...does that make me unethical???  :confused:

[BradLantz]

I live in Arkansas, we have had crossbows for 35+ years, and we have a 5 month archery season.

In our state and every other state I've ever studied, crossbows and compounds never resulted in fewer days of season or fewer deer tags available.

Because of the compound, millions are in the archery ranks/numbers. There is power in numbers. Because of compounds many good things have happened.


Now that said, I do think something has been lost with compounds where they are technology wise and crossbows. I think restrictions on crossbows to iron sights would improve the challenge, maybe even a FPS rule or poundage or both.

Same with compounds. No trigger releases, I like the 65% letoff rule that once was.

Technology has turned compounds and crossbows into very accurate 75-100 yard weapons that any of us traditional shooters could be grouping 4-6" arrows in 20 minutes


I would support in some way a choose your weapon season too. However, I like having venison for my family, and its nice to be able to take the rifle out after 6-8 weeks of traditional hunting for the simple purpose of shooting meat does/deer, I'll not lie about that. There is a bridge sometimes between sport of hunting and practicality too.

[Brian Krebs]

Well- I spend a lot of time on this issue.

First off the first anti-hunters were rifle hunters.
 The very first anti-bow hunters were rifle hunters.
 Rifle hunters have put us down unfairly; and have paid for that when studies like McCalister come along. (Rifle hunters complained about the wounding rate of deer there; and were quick to chastise bowhunters. A study was done by the government as McCalister is government owned. Turned out rifle hunters were wounding more game; and they were no longer allowed to hunt there. Then compound bow hunters complained about traditional bowhunters wounding more animals; and another study was done; and it did not work out well for the compounders).
 
 I must comment on the entry about the crossbows and how no dead animals were found with bolts sticking out of them unless the person just shot them.... then the person goes on to note that most of his shots are pass throughs... think about that.
 ( And that was not intended in anyway as a slam on that person - at all.)
It would be foolish to say that crossbows are not efficient at casting a broadhead. But its not bowhunting.  

 There are a couple factors in finding an animal after it is hit. One is knowing where you hit it; and the other is knowing where it was when you shot...which is where the blood trail begins.

 Rifle hunters aim for the shoulder; they want the animal to drop in its tracks. I once spent a day tracking down 6 different deer- that rifle hunters said they missed: because the animal did not drop. All 6 deer died within 500 yards of being hit.

 The point is that rifle hunters expect an animal to drop in its tracks. And they have a different aiming point. When you are hunting with a bow; the chances of a spine shot and having the animal drop where it is hit: are slim.

 So - to take the average rifle hunter and give him a bow in which he can become a proficient shot in ten minutes of practice ...lends nothing to the ability of finding and following blood trails; and when to follow; and when not to.

 Then I read here the idea of testing your accuracy with a bow; the concept of 'proficiency testing' being a tool for improving bowhunting.
     It is NOT.

Yes we want to be accurate with our bows; but making that the determining factor for who gets to hunt with a bow and who does not is a huge leap in logic. Such a huge leap; it falls into the chasm of illogic.

 We do have bowhunter ed classes; the best tests would be concerning shot angles; getting close; and knowing when to shoot. That can mean that on a given day- the correct decision is not to shoot at all. Some days in shooting a bow are 'diamond' and some days are 'stone'. If your having a day where you don't feel confident in your shooting; you should not shoot at an animal. If that day is the day of a proficiency test: it requires the person to shoot when they feel no confidence- and that is the wrong lesson.

 Rifle hunters wanted nothing to do with bow hunters- when bows started appearing in the woods. The bowhunters 'woke the deer up and made them harder to kill' etc.
 
 I know people that were furious with me for killing a deer with my bow at 20 yards- when they went the rifle season without getting a deer with their rifle. It was an ego thing. I was hunting for the connection with nature; and some of them were too; but they felt they failed with a long range accurate weapon; where I succeeded with a short range weapon in the same area they were hunting.
  In reality:
 They did not fail. I did not 'out do' them.

 The danger we are seeing is that the rifle hunter that picks up the compound ( or cam bow or single cam bow or whatever they are calling them now) is shooting quickly more accurately than is really necessary to make a killing shot. Shooting a 2 inch group at 40 yards is good; but not necessary for killing a deer ethically with a bow.

 Funny thing is; I truly believe that most rifle hunters shoot 'off hand' bigger groups: than they would with a modern compound bow in short order.  Oh give them a rest or shooting sticks and they do pretty good; but... I have seen hundreds of gun hunters sighting in their rifles before rifle season; and its pretty obvious most rifle hunters are good enough shots; but not shooting groups we see from the average compound bow shooter.

 I am a traditional bow- bowhunter. I need more time to get close; more time to make up for the opportunity to get close... and more time to let myself become part of nature - not just someone there for a kill; and then get back to civilization; or pull out another tag to start stacking the kills up.

 Ishis last words were that 'we will meet again in the flight of the arrow'  ( and I see it as us as bowhunters ). Ishi had an incredible relationship with nature; and that is what the best of bowhunters follow; the relationship.

 I see that as being bastardized by modern shortcuts to the tagging of an animal.

 I watch bowhunting shows with incredibly wonderful people - that see a deer etc. approaching- and pull out the range finder; and then draw back their bow and wait and wait until the animal comes to a clear place to shoot. That is in stark contrast to those of us that see the animal approach and have to wait until the animal is stepping into the spot where we can shoot; and risk the animal seeing us draw at that moment.

 There are lots of other things; like high fences; shooting animals just because they are 'cull' animals for eventual 'trophy hunting'; and not grasping the value of the animals life; or that the ability of an animal to live wild- is important.

 Do I want a separate season ? ... well I want a separate classification. I want traditional bowhunters not to lose time in the field because of the effect of numbers of bowhunters in the field; or the higher take. I know that seems not to be issue in some places; but it is in others.

 Aldo Leopold - the father of modern conservation saw this coming; and said that bowhunters should never be used as game management tools. I do think he would take exception to some situations- like 'city deer overpopulation' situations; where guns as weapons: are a hard sell for safety reasons.

 But the main theme; that we should never become such a force of nature that we need to be controlled - well that makes sense to me.

 And if we have to stand together as traditional bowhunters to achieve that; then so be it.

 This is such a hot topic- it makes so many people really mad- mad that they as rifle hunters; or as compound bowhunters might not be able to hunt when traditional bowhunters do... that the very topic seems to be self destructive to us.

 But remember- it was rifle hunters that were the first anti- bowhunters. It is rifle / part time bowhunters with compound bows that are our biggest threat now.

 These people openly threaten to destroy traditional bowhunting; through lies and innuendos- and 'proficiency testing' - so strong is their anger.

 I do not believe we can win these people over - with logic or ethics or anything.

 I would be happy to buy a tag for bowhunting a species only. I do think there should be a halfway point. That is an opening for our youth to come into bowhunting - and that path has been the use of a compound bow season that augments the rifle season.

 It has worked- but with sacrifice. The sacrifice being the path to bowhunting becoming a superhighway; and the vehicle to get there: being so advanced that its users think we no longer belong on the path at all.

 I think making a classification of traditional bowhunting is in order. Its like putting in a stake in the ground and tying yourself to it; and saying 'this is where I will stay- even if it means death'.

 I hope the modern bow road takes the masses past us walking instead of riding; and they find another route to take- leaving us safely behind.

 Sounds radical; but there are those that would roll in eliminating traditional bowhunting like a dog on a stinky dead animal.

 I do strongly believe in rifle hunting; it is the backbone of the second amendment; a place for our youth to learn the rules and responsibilities of handling weapons and taking orders and being regulated.

 But hunting with a bow has its roots deep in our instincts; deep - over 9,000 years old in our history - and it needs to be protected as a tradition.

 Its up to us how to do this- and it is good I believe to think about it and discuss it.

[Dave Bulla]

Brian, EXCELLENT post!

You brought up a lot of great points.  I especially liked the last part:

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"I do strongly believe in rifle hunting; it is the backbone of the second amendment; a place for our youth to learn the rules and responsibilities of handling weapons and taking orders and being regulated.

But hunting with a bow has its roots deep in our instincts; deep - over 9,000 years old in our history - and it needs to be protected as a tradition.

Its up to us how to do this- and it is good I believe to think about it and discuss it."

*************************************************

[acadian archer]

In Nova Scotia we are allowed one deer per year in whatever season you get one.
You must have passed a hunter safety course for gun and one for bow if you wish to hunt any game with gun , bow or both.

Crossbow use (so far) is limited to the deer gun season only no other use of the crossbow is permitted. you must have taken the archery course to use the xbow.

here is the outline for the archery course;

Duration: 10 to 12 hours.
Fee: $40.00


The Bowhunter Instructors Association of Nova Scotia conduct the Bowhunter Education Course.

The course includes instruction on ethical responsibilities of bowhunters; laws and regulations; equipment; basic survival skills, first aid, and safety; when to shoot; and hunting.

Pass mark for the written test is 88%. In a practical test, students must successfully shoot three out of five arrows into a 30 cm (12 inch) circle from a distance of 4.5 to 6.0 m (15 to 20 yards).

[tim roberts]

Great post Brian!!!