Playing Dirty Pool???

[wtpops]

(also Playing Devil's advocate here)

So just because I paid someone to guide me on PUBLIC LAND one year, now I can no longer hunt that PUBLIC LAND with out the guide. Wouldn't you think that the guide fee would include the knowledge of the land?

[Jeff Strubberg]

Now wait a minute.

You pay guides and outfitters to teach you about the area and game that they are experts with.  If the only thing a guide has going for him/her is a location on PUBLIC land that they think of as their honey hole, then you should find another guide.

If you showed a friend your favorite spot on public ground, would you be surprised if he hunted there?  C'mon.

[30coupe]

I think it would take either a lot of guts or lack of conscience to take out a GPS while on a guided hunt. On the other hand, I don't see how a guide on public land can expect a spot to stay THEIRS alone. I would think guides on public land are offering more of a how-to than a where-to hunt.

I fish Lake Texoma every year and have since 1992. The first year we hired a guide who did put us on some fish. Like most of the guides, he used bait that he obtained at the beginning of the trip using a cast net. Since then we have fished using exclusively artificial baits, and we tend to catch more fish than those on the guided trips. My folks winter on Texoma and the guides often follow them now. Are the guides cheating? No, it is a public lake.

I wouldn't hire a guide in order to steal his spots, but then, I wouldn't hire a guide anyway. As has been said, I don't hunt this way because it's easy. I enjoy the challenge. Unlike the "pro" hunters on TV, I don't drop my bow and grab a rifle just so I can kill something. The kill is the goal, but the hunt is what I enjoy.

As one of my friends from Texoma is fond of saying, "Fishing is always good. Sometimes catching isn't."

[Broken Arrows]

DIRTY POOL!!!!!!!!!!!
Public or not.

[paleFace]

I tend to agree with David as well.  If it's public land that a guide takes you on, chances are he was shown the spot himself at some point. If you avoid hunting public land just because a guide may be hunting that area you might be hard pressed to locate and area to hunt. Add to that the fact that elk are not like whitetails and move long distances. where you find them this year may not even have an elk within 50 miles next. that's probably stretching it a little but.

[amar911]

Devil David -- You make good points.

Part of the answer to the original question depends of what is being hunted. Some species stay in the same places while others migrate and must be located every few days. Being as how I can't stay long in any hunting area other than those here in Oklahoma, I now try to always hire a guide, usually on private land or some place where I could not get on my own anyway. I agree that doing what others here have described is indeed dirty pool, but it happens all the time in hunting and fishing situations.

Allan

[kadbow]

I've seen the opposite too many times where the guide thinks they own the public land and will tromp right through your set up with their hunter.  Public land is PUBLIC and it works both ways.  That said, I've never used a guide.

[No-sage]

I don't know about you guys, but I wouldn't go out in the mountains without a topo map and a compasss, and I sure as heck would always know where I was.  Public land or private land, I need to know where I am and how to get home to my family.

What if something happens to your guide?  How are you going to get out of there if you have no idea where you are?

I'm not putting that kind of faith in any man, other than myself.

[wapiti]

It boils down to respect of the effort someone else has put into something. Dirty Pool to use the same spot? Yes! Dirt pool to let the guide TEACH you how to hunt that species and ask questions so you can find your own spots? NO! Same goes the other way. Gudies know areas well and if they come upon someone hunting a spot they should leave and and mosey to another location. It doesn't have to be far, either, to make it ameniable to both parties.

 Please respect ones ability to make a living and expect the same from them to enjoy your passion and EFFORT you have put into it.This way we can enjoy better hunting for ourselves both on our own and through honest, hard working ,dedicated guide services.


If you had a comunity garden and all worked the same would you go and grab the best for yourself or maybe think things through and develope a plan? Guides and outfitters have what is called a "Dog and Pony Show" and that may be what you get when they find out you have little respect for their efforts on your behalf.You could go home with more than wounded pride. They are fully cabable of of making the hunt as enjoyable and productive as possible or as hard and health zapping as they choose.

[wingnut]

I have an example of this.  Lets see what you think.  A client hired an outfitter to pack them into the back country on an elk hunt on horse back.  They had a great hunt with guides and cooks and took a couple of nice bulls.

The next year when the outfitter took his clients in, the guy was setting on the ridge above camp with his tent.  He had come cross country with Quads even though they were banned in the area and had a group of 6 guys hunting the same area as the outfitter.

If I'd been the outfitter the @#$@ would have hit the fan.. . .big time.  As it was they sent one of the guides back out 20 miles to get the game dept.

Mike

[NorthernCaliforniaHunter]

What's next? A blindfold?

Seriously guys, I have to agree with Vermonster on this one. Is it the accuracy of the GPS that's the issue? If it's public land, and you remember the way in 'off-the-cuff', does it still remain unethical?

I for one have a much bigger issue with a guide charging outsiders to hunt public land and then expect some kind of claim on that land. We ALL pay for the maintenance and conservation of public land. Seems to me if that if that guide was successful enough (makes a boat-load of money) and had enough influence ("friends in high places") it could be conceivable that he might influence the politics of that public land. Perhaps influence a special season or restrict access through legal channels...

The guide is like training wheels, or like a hand-held while crossing the street. It makes perfect sense to hire one for otherwise inaccessable or un-scoutable private land, but for public? It's purely a convenience and a time saver and the guide should expect no claim other than compensation for THAT service, in my opinion.

Though that being said I'm sure I'd call the bastard with the GPS a rat!  

[tradfergie]

Originally posted by vermonster13:
 

Originally posted by tradfergie:
No way, most of us hunt trad, because we don't like to take the easy way out.  We put our time talent and love it to doing it this way. I truely belive that you will not find someone on this sight who feels it is okay.  We do this for the enjoyment of the hunt and not the kill.  The kill adds to the whole experience but not the sole reason.  For that reason and that reason alone I believe most of us on here would not.  Why take the time to make your own equipment.  Pratice for hours to get that personal relationship with your hunting equipment, then to steal the information that someone else put their love and passion into

If you're hiring a guide aren't you taking a short cut anyways?

Counter point. Is it ok for someone to earn a living on public land guiding? How should the locals feel about someone bringing folks from outside into their hunting grounds for cash? How about when the larger guide services lease up all the land in an area that folks used to hunt for the asking in the past? If you didn't use a GPS just memory and a map would that make it ok?

(Playing Devil's advocate here) [/b]

I understand that, and I agree to a point.  The love to hunt in other area's sometime dictas that we get help.  And I beleive that if you plan on goinmg back there you should talk to the guide.  Other's raise good points about this is public land, but what are your reasons behind it. Some very good points on here and reason to think

[SELFBOW19953]

While I don't want someone holding my hand and telling me when to shoot, I do need someone to put me in an area where animals I know nothing about can be found, so I would hire a guide. My next elk or moose hunt will be my first, and likely my last.  I can't afford it-licenses, guide, transportation, bringing meat home.  Maybe I'm stubborn, too proud, or just plain stupid, but I like to find my own spots to hunt.  If a friend takes me to a hot spot of his, I'll pay attention to why it's a hot spot, ask questions-and never go back without his invitation.  Then I'll work on finding my own hot spot based on my observations and the hints/suggestions from my friend.

[ChuckC]

Had to jump and respond without reading them all.  I have to agree, at least in part, with Vermonster.  It is public land, open to all of us.   I could rightfully feel harshly about him bringing others in to an area I normally hunt and getting paid for that.

Nope,  public land is open to public use.  

Besides,  GPS or not, if you are any kind of woodsman,  I can't believe you would have that much difficulty figuring out where you were.  

I would not hunt without compass and map in hand, with or without a guide.  If we got separated I would be totally lost without one.

Now. . .   WOULD I do it ?   I have a thing about doing it myself, as do most of us here I think.  Wouldn't mean the same to me if I just walked in to that area.  

In addition.  Just because you are standing in his spot does not mean you are killing any elk.

Nope.   I think I disagree with any inkling that he or she "owns" that spot from here on out.
ChuckC

[Orion]

Vermonster makes some good points, but it's definitely sleazeball behavior to GPS the area with the intention of coming back to the same place the next year without the guide.  Also sleazeball to go back to a spot a friend has shown you, particularly taking others along, unless he's indicated he doesn't mind.  It's just lazy, sleazeball behavior.  Rather than take the time and effort to learn how and where to hunt, they just steal it from others.

[Last of the Breed]

So is it dirty if someone went with a guide and then tells some one else about the spot or for the sake of trad the guy marks it on a topo map and not a GPS, then gives it away?  If a guy goes into a really nice "trad" bow shop should he keep it to himself or does he have to get permission to tell others.  If its public then its public.  I myself have never used a guide, so this is my limited input.

[James Wrenn]

If you ever hire a guide to walk you around on public land you then forever give up your right to ever go there again without paying.Semms that is the idea a lot of you have.Sure would hate to run into him and he think I was stealing his animals off his land just because I had hunted with him in the past.If it is public land he can just get over it.I might not want him hunting in an area I have hunted before.Wonder what he thinks of that when he brings hunters in?Public land is just that.Open to all.  

[Mo. Huntin]

You all make very good points.  I have a friend who is a big deer killing machine and if he and I were to hunt an area, I would not ask him anything cause I want free range of that place without worrying about stepping on toes.  plus I want to do it on my own.  Kind of different I guess sort of.  I am not knocking anybody that uses a guide I would have to in the areas you speak of.  Luckily I don't have the drive to save the money to hunt those big beasts.

[fatman]

If a guide takes me to a spot that I can access on my own, then what are the chances that some other nimrod is not gonna be there when we arrive?  If I pay someone to guide me, I want

A)  DEEP access on public ground
B)  Access on Private Ground

IMHO, I would be more willing to pay top dollar for option B than option A...

$.02

   

[Steertalker]

Most guided hunts are a ways in; for the most part, by horseback.  Once you have been guided into a spot you forever have the knowledge of that spot, GPS or not, unless your a complete idiot.  The guide does not have exclusive rights to any particular area unless it is private property.  He's betting that you won't have the wherewithall to get yourself back to that spot without his help; and most hunters don't.

I've hunted the last 3 years with a guide and he had no problems with his clients using a GPS.  I've never used a GPS before but what's the problem with using a guide the first time and then going back the next year on a drop camp and using the GPS coordinates to navigate back to the spots the guide took you on the first go around; makes it a hell of a lot easier on the guide.  The guides I've used appreciated the fact that they didn't have to baby sit me and that I could navigate myself.

Brett