Playing Dirty Pool???

[ishoot4thrills]

Nope, NOT dirty pool. The guide surely knows that if he's guiding on public land, then "the Spot" just isn't gonna stay secret very long. I'd say he'd expect that. I mean c'mon, just look at how difficult it's becoming to find any land to hunt on anymore nowadays, a lot because of money, or the lack thereof. Guides save their private leases for insurance that no one else can hunt there. They can pretty much count on their leases every year for many years in the future. Public land is just that, public. If the guides don't like it, then they can use their leases that no one else can have access to for guiding.

[Buckeye Trad Hunter]

Just like fatman said it is public land and what's to say that you will even have a spot to set up.  If the spot's that gtreat why wouldn't the locals already be there?  Say you don't use a gps and you return and roughly try to hunt the same spots from memory, is it still wrong to hunt this public land just because someone decided to guide people there?

[wingnut]

What everyone doesn't understand is that outfitters and guides usually don't hunt from a truck (some do).

They pack in to areas that they have licence to guide in.  They pay for the privilage to guide on public land and in many instances have exclusive guide to an area.  Now non guides can hunt the area but other guides can't.

If you hunt just to get the area from a guide, then you are a stealing his or her livelyhood.

Of course if a buddy takes me to his honeyhole, I wouldn't think of going back unless he invited me.

Mike

[fireball31]

Is it ok for someone to earn a living on public land guiding?

There in lies the answer to the question for me.  First off I wouldn't pay somebody to take me on public land. Second, its public land so I don't feel bad using it.

[fatman]

Mike, that's exactly what I'm saying.  If an outfitter can access public land that's WAY back in there, it is COST EFFECTIVE and logical for me to hire his services.....rather than trying to run a string of horses 12 months of the year, having trailers and trucks to haul them from home, and spend time messing with them while in camp.  When all of those factors are considered, the outfitter's fee can be a real bargain....even if I could pinpoint his camp by GPS, I still couldn't get there...

[huntindad]

I think your all right in some way.I grew up out west and the only time I ever hunted on private property is for ducks I have never used a guide.I have hunted in ID,CO,OR,NV and my home state of CA in that time I have seen quite a few guides in country I was hunting and never had any problems with them and believe they have the right to earn a living.Now I hope I don't step on toes but they do not own the land as has been said and they were probably shown the spot by someone else I know this because I have given way more info to guides then was ever given to me. I use every resource available to me to find my areas to hunt and they do too.I am not the best hunter out there by any stretch but I do better than most and I find my deer in areas that are bypassed by most for being too accessible.Most guides do go to areas that are tough to get as posted above to keep you from returning without them.I think if wingnuts example had not been in there illegally then the guide probably would have overlooked it as a case of at least the guy is working just as hard as me to hunt here.I have noticed on this thread that the majority of people are not from areas with a lot of public land I believe this gives a different perspective as most land you hunt is more "yours" whether factually or figuratively.Out west you have to compete for hunting whether to get tags or a good vantage point to glass from its first come first served.I would bet dollars to donuts if the shoe was on the other foot he'd hunt your spot on public land. JMHO   Bill

[SteveB]

Easy way for it to be right is too make clear your intentions before the hunt. Be upfront. If the guide is OK with being your "training wheels", then great. If he is not and you do it anyway behind his back, then I probably would pass on sharing a camp with you.

You expect full disclosure and honesty from the service you are hiring - is it not right to return the same?

Steve

[2treks]

I used to guide in Montana and I have come across ex-clients in some of my spots. Never had one come back twice, as they saw some fault in what they had done.The hunting pressure can get heavy at times like that. I know guides and outfitters that have delt with it fairly harsh, this is how they make a living and they do not like sqatters. they take it quite serious.(some, not all). I do not think that it is right for someone to sneak around, and I do not think it right for someone to lay claim to public ground. Having bad morals or poor hunter ethics is un-excusable.

[GMMAT]

I do not think it right for someone to lay claim to public ground.

In your case...who was doing that?

Doesn't this work both ways?

I see both sides of this equally.

[James Wrenn]

 used to guide in Montana and I have come across ex-clients in some of my spots. Never had one come back twice, as they saw some fault in what they had done.The hunting pressure can get heavy at times like that. I know guides and outfitters that have delt with it fairly harsh, this is how they make a living and they do not like sqatters. they take it quite serious.(some, not all). I do not think that it is right for someone to sneak around, and I do not think it right for someone to lay claim to public ground. Having bad morals or poor hunter ethics is un-excusable.

 

It seems since you are a guide you are laying claim to the land for yourself.Why else would anyone you happened along be "squatters"?If it is public land there are no squatters, only guides that think they are above everyone else that wants to hunt that land.Get private land to guide on if you don't want to see other people. jmho

[Broken Arrows]

Just remember karma. ever time I have done some thing unmoral it has always came back to bite in the _ss.I always try to show respect for other hunters and the places I have been shown.

[Talondale]

For me, I think the difference lies in the air of deception inherent in the scenario.  If you were up front with the guide that you are using him to learn the area, and methods, and intend on hunting alone in the future then I don't see a problem with it.  Of course, you might end up getting less then pleasant service from the guide after that, depending on the guide's ethics.  As mentioned earlier animals move and part of the guide's services is prescouting so that you have an idea of where the animals are or aren't and hopefully increasing your chance of encounters.  You won't have that going back alone and will have to account for that by planning more time to find game or be resolved to the possibility that you may not locate the game until late in your hunt, if at all.  Another thing to consider is that if you are considering this then you are looking to go back into an area that you can almost guarantee is going to have other hunters in it.  That's not necessarily a good thing.  Maybe using the knowledge of where he takes his clients to move into adjacent areas that may hold less pressured animals would be the better choice.

[SteveB]

For me, I think the difference lies in the air of deception inherent in the scenario. If you were up front with the guide that you are using him to learn the area, and methods, and intend on hunting alone in the future then I don't see a problem with it.

Exactly my point!
Intent is what its all about.

Steve

[Widowbender]

I personally wouldn't care if a buddy hunted or fished a spot I had shown  them. I'd be happy and hope they had good luck...I don't own it, just payin' taxes on it...As far as the guide deal goes I'd be up front about it...

David

[2treks]

GMMAT& James Wrenn, I am refering in this case to the outfitter.I would hunt the area as if alone as per the outfitters request. I do not claim the rights to it. but the ax can swing both ways. The bottom line for me is, The law or rules state that an outfitter can use the PUBLIC land.So can the non-guide. nobody can claim exclusive rights to it.
   I myself would not go into that spot unless I spoke with the outfitter and went at a time that he was not in and he had no hard feelings toward me for it. If you try to "BEAT" the guide to the spot then this just shows poor morals. if you go in you should expect company and that the hunting will be less than good with two(or more) hunters in the spot. I like to hunt with no other folks around for miles. why would I go to the spot that I know will have hunters in it?
   You cannot legislate morality. so we must have respect and courtesy.
Just my thoughts. Chuck

[Dave Bulla]

This whole topic is one that can certainly raise tempers aint it?

I personally have never used a guide.  I've only hunted "out west" once which was for elk in Colorado on BLM land where we did quite well.  Five guys killed three elk and we all had shot opportunities.

In my personal experience, I can only try to relate this to hunting deer on public land.  I suspect that some outfitters are like some hunters here around home.  They go on the public land and scout out all the best areas then when the time comes they hang stands in every single one of them and expect others to NOT hunt those areas.  I know guys who some years hang 10 to 20 stands on the public land I hunt.  I also know that some of the stands will NEVER get hunted in some years.  Am I supposed to not hunt the best spots on the PUBLIC land because someone else has "laid claim" to them by hanging a stand there?  I don't think it's any different than a guide "claiming" the hunting rights to a piece of public land.

In the past, I've talked to guys where I hunt and in order to avoid bumping into each others stand sites I told them exactly where I would be hunting only to come back the next weekend to find he'd hung a stand in that exact tree.  And I was certain it was him because Missouri requires you to put your name and address on your stand if hung on public land.

Of course, all that said, I myself wouldn't use a guide just to find his hot spots but I might hire one with an up front agreement that I want him to show me some spots I could come back to on my own.  In that case I would expect to be shown some quality places but I would also understand if he did not take me to his very best spots.  Sort of a fair trade on both our parts.  For my money, I gain some knowledge and have some fun while I'm doing it.  For his time and effort he gets some of my money which is what he's after anyway.  This seems to be a common tactic for lake fishing and I've even heard local am radio talk shows with actual fishing guides recommending exactly that to the listeners.  Probably never happen in my case though because half the time I can barely afford to go hunting let alone hire a guide.  Guess I'll just have to do like I always do and figure it out on my own.

Speaking of "figuring it out on my own", I guess that's the real beef I have from the examples I gave above.  Sure the guy who hangs a bunch of stands has done a lot of leg work and spent a lot of time figuring out the movement patterns of the local deer but so have I.  Just because he has a couple dozen stands he's willing to put out and I only have two or three that I won't leave out on public land does not give him the right to exclusive use of that land.  I've done my work too.  Of course, I have not hired him to get that info which is the point of this thread.

So, I guess I'm figuring that just because a guide did a bunch of legwork and found some good spots does not keep someone else who has done the same work but is not a guide from using the same places.  That's not what this was about but the post about guides finding "squatters" on their spots really struck me this way and bothered me quite a bit.  I guess I just can't stand arrogance from hunters about their "right" to a spot when it's a spot on public land.  I understand that guide services pay fees for exclusive guiding rights to parcels of land but I suspect that many wrongly think that gives them something to hold over the average Joe who also has the right to be there.

Bottom line, public land is public land period.

[gregg dudley]

Public land is public land and respect is respect.  It is unreasonable to show someone a good spot on public land and assume that they will never use or apply that knowledge.  At the same time, it is good manners to defer to the person that you learned from when you are both in the field at the same time.  

All land is not created equally.  In many cases 70% of the game is to be found on 30% of the available property.  In that scenario you are bound to encounter other hunters unless access is limited in some fashion.  It is always best to be civil and try to get along.

[JohnV]

After reading through all the posts so far I can only say that there is a bunch of you guys I would never invite to hunt with me on public lands because it is very clear the next time I go to hunt the spots that I scouted and found and shared with you, I would probably find you in a treestand waving me off.  Public land may be open for all to enjoy but to deliberately go back without permission to someone's honeyhole after they shared it with you is unethical and a severe breach in any friendship that may have existed.

[ishiwannabe]

Back to the original post, I hate to sound harsh, but the guide should be prepared for something like this. Something in the contract, etc.

Public land is public land....no one, guide or otherwise, can "claim" it. I hunt fairly high pressure areas, and the rule around here is first there wins. I have had many hunts changed by showing up at "my spot" to find someone else already set up...I move on with a wave.

[Autumnarcher]

Very good topic. I have hunted CO on semi- guided hunts. This meaning some days I'm hunting with the guide, others on my own. I have used GPS to mark trails back to areas I intend to hunt. We talked about it, and they had no problems with it at all. The areas arer public land, but access from the ranch is by far easier than coming in from the other side off BLM land.

On occasion we would see or run in to other hunters that did pack in. Its frustrating, only in that after a good amount of hiking there was someone already hunting in the area we planned. We moved to anothe area.

Its really all about common courtesy. I fish on a large body of water( Saginaw Bay) for walleye. Is this really any different than going on a charter, and learning from the captain areas to fish and lures to use? Not really. Now, I could sit in the marina and follow the next charter boat out of the marina, and set up and troll right behind him all day. This would be quite rude. Same with popping up inthe middle of an area an outfitter is hunting. Now if I am inthe same area, and find they are not there, then I see no reason that there is anything wrong.

In hunting, or fishing, the game or fish are not always inthe exact same spots every time. Too many variables. I may know of a particular bench that holds elk, with a water hole or wallow that is hot at times. Doesnt mean that I would sit right next to someone elses set-up, although at some point in a hunt, I may work that area.

I have heard of guides, who have the guiding permit for a cerain area get downright threatening of hunters who "encroach" on that area. Some will tell non-clients that they are trespassing on private land when in fact they are on public land. If this happens, I would contact the warden. Study your maps, and know where you are. KNow the laws of the state you are in. Trespassing is a serious violation in most western states. But ifyou are on public land, you have every right to hunt there.

Be courteous of other hunters, and don't piss in their wheaties.