Playing Dirty Pool???

[Jeff Strubberg]

without permission to someone's honeyhole after

It's public land.  It's not your honey hole.  If it were private property I would agree with you 100 percent.

[Burnsie]

I have never used a guide, but just so I'm clear on this, if I ever do use a guide I am forever banned from hunting that area again unless I rebook with them - correct?

[Buckeye Trad Hunter]

without permission to someone's honeyhole after
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

It's public land. It's not your honey hole. If it were private property I would agree with you 100 percent.

 

Exactly.  That's what makes it public land.  You don't need anyones permision to go anywhere on it.

[Buckeye Trad Hunter]

Don't get me wrong on that last post.  I'm not saying that I would hunt where someone had told me they were hunting there but I don't think it's right to try to lay claim to public land either.

[Dave Bulla]

Just went back and read the original post here.  It was as follows:

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

"If a man hires a guide to take him hunting... Lets say for elk in Co on Public Land??? And the customer uses a GPS to mark all the honey holes the guide is taking him to so he doesn't have to use the guide next year.. IS THIS PLAYIN DIRTY POOL????
I mean the guide has spent all this time and effort to locate good hunting spots. Is the customer taking food out of the guides mouth for next year???
Is this a commonly done thing??? "

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Just had a thought.  Since the customer was paying the guide (Probably quite a bit of money) and the guide was giving the info, in exchange for that money, does not the client then "own" that info?

If not, then do you also feel that if you pay money to be educated in college, you are not allowed to apply that education in the future?

Playing Devils advocate ...........

Stirring the pot????

Bubble bubble, boil and trouble..... here the witches cackle????

[Jeff Strubberg]

It's called knowledge transfer in my buisness.  It's what you pay private contractors for.

[Brian Krebs]

I used to shoe horses for income; and I once went to an outfitters lodge back in the mountains of Idaho. I went there for the money; and the experience; but I had hunted the area 5 miles south of the lodge; and was interested in the hunting there.
 While working on some incredibly rank horses; one of the guides was lined up without knowing it- for a kick in the head. I shoved him aside and the horses hooves went right where his head had been.
  I spent ten days there working with the guides; and going on some scouting trips.
   There were three ways into this place; by plane( which I did with my equipment); by equine; or by foot.
   While I was there I noticed that the forest service trail that led through the lodge area was covered with trees that had been cut and laid there to prevent people from passing through.
  The trail leading into the property went between some cabins ( all on leased forest service land)- the trail had a hot electric wire hanging about 7 feet off the ground. You had to really lay down on the saddle to get under it.
 And on the opposite side of the cabin; if you had tried to get around it; was a pit they dug to prevent you from doing it.
  The outfitter was intentionally blocking the trail to 'his' best spots.
   He also had barbed wire across trails; and the guides told me what I heard from other hunters; that the only watering holes were taken over by the outfitter in hunting season - their camps surrounded them. And they were told to spook the horses of anyone that tried to water their horses there.
  On the way out in the plane; the outfitter told  me that he wanted me back to re-shoe his horses in September... and I told him that I was going to be bowhunting in September- but that I was going to be in the general area; and if he wanted to fly my equipment in; I would work on his horses for a few days while I was on my month long hunting trip.
  He told me it was " his area" and that I " was not to hunt there". I asked if he was a veteran; and he said no- and I commented "I guess you were busy that day" - " but I am a veteran; and I am willing to fight for my country; and this spot". "It is national forest ground - not your private property".
 Well the ensuing response nearly got us crashed; and I -did- go there to hunt that fall.

 And the guide who I kept from getting his head kicked off- told me that the outfitter had ordered his guides to "burn him [me] out".
  I use a coleman stove; and if you do not turn it off all the way after use; it then seeps gas; and when you turn the gas on and light it; it can blow up and burn your tent down. Knowing the plan- I made sure I turned off the stove completely after use; and - that I checked it before lighting it.
 Sure enough one day there were horse tracks on the trail ( and yes I could tell the shoes were ones I put on) and the stove was turned on a little... and a tragedy was avoided.
  The sheriff told me that there were originally 6 outfitters there; and this was the last one with a license to outfit - they all had lost their licenses for stuff just like this.
 
  So- do I give a tinkers dang if that outfitter has people gps his honey holes? NO.

  If it is National Forest land; the outfitter does not own it. YOU DO.

  Yes if it takes horses and such to get back in there; or a plane ride - well most are not going to screw up a good deal - and most are not going to go back in through bogs and cold rivers on their own.

  It is rude to step on someones feet; but not if their dancing with your lady.
   
I do not support doing something that feels wrong to do. If I think something is unethical; I won't do it. But too; if an outfitter is hogging an area; and they do- then follow your heart.

 I never hunted that spot again; but two years later the outfitters secretary begged me to go back because they needed a horseshoer - no: I did not get on that plane again.

 That is one story; I have numerous others which just involve outfitters anger over people invading "their areas". Some of those people did it innocently: and are members of this site.

 Follow you heart. Don't mess up other peoples hunts; but don't let them mess up yours either.

[Brian Krebs]

After typing the entry above; out of curiosity I googled that spot; and the outfitter there now ( no idea if its the same guy) has the gps co-ordinates of the landing strip listed on the web site.. lol

[Greg Skinner]

Interesting thread.  I've bowhunted in Idaho for 31 years - never with an outfitter or guide.  I've always been a do-it-yourselfer.  I have thought about using an outfitter on occasion, just to get back into remote country that is virtually impossible to reach on foot, especially if I shot an elk and needed to haul meat out.  I have spent lots of time scouting and learning different areas, and yes, it does indeed take a great deal of time to become familiar enough with a given area to be able to consistently get in to elk.  The most successful elk hunters I know are those who devote most of their time to learning the country.  However, I assure you that just because there are elk in this area or that spot this year is absolutely no guarantee they will be there next season - or even next week for that matter. So, whereas I feel it would be a bit "dirty pool" to deliberately mark spots by any means with the intent to return and hunt without the outfitter, the person who did so would still have no certainty of finding elk and very likely would have to do some searching and scouting on his own anyway. And, if it was an area only accessible by horseback, he would have to deal with the logistics of either bringing his own stock or renting local stock to haul game if he was successful.  Colorado might be different, but here in Idaho there is a lot of real estate for those elk to wander around in and they do wander. Outfitters here have their designated areas (public land) that are usually large enough that one or two "honey holes" aren't going to make or break their guiding season.  From an ethical standpoint the action under discussion may not be right, but from a practical reality, at least here in Idaho, it is of little consequence, as I see it.

[Burnsie]

I think using the term "honey Hole" is where the grey area comes in here.  I guess if the guide is truely taking you into his prime "honey holes" getting you into non-stop action and chances at nice bulls then it would be sleazy to mark his spots. But I have read many accounts of people claiming that you never really see a guide's real honey holes unless some extra $$$$ is used to grease the skids.
So is it dirty pool to mark his average so-so spots, where maybe you saw a decent number of elk (or maybe very few) and had a good time, but nothing spectacular. To a first timer or novice that may have seemed like a honey hole.

[Barney]

I called a friend (who is a guide) and asked him his thoughts. He kinda chuckled and said "well heck no, I wouldn't mind. If they didn't have horses, I'd feel sorry for them though. Just cause you can hike into where the elk are, doesn't mean you can pack one out before it spoils with some of the weather we get in bow season. Or come back on a second trip and find a grizz on it. Even if they did have horses, chances are the elk won't be in the same place anyhow. They couldn't even hunt the wilderness areas without a guide. I go into the mountains about a month before season starts and clear the trails, make sure the water is in the same place and find the critters. Guides do alot more than people think sometimes. I'm all for someone wanting to try and do it on their own."

[Missouri Sherpa]

Somehow I think it would be a low class thing to do to hire an outfitter and then go back the very next year and hunt the same spots, even if it is public land.  On the other hand maybe if you were to go back years later it might not be so bad.  Here is a for instance for you;

Over 10 years ago I did not have time to haul all of my pack animals and camp from Iowa to Southwest Colorado so I hopped a plane and paid an outfitter for a 5 day timberline mule deer bowhunt.  I didn't really want the guide, just the camp setup but sometimes you have to take what you can get.  This area was 8 miles into the wilderness and there were more big mule deer there than I have ever seen before or since.  There were three high basins above treeline and there were mule deer bucks in all of them.  We couldn't hunt them all at once and rotated our morning and evening hunts around those basins.  The outfitter only used this area for the first two weeks of bowseason and them moved to an area that was much better for elk during muzzleloader and last week of bowseason.  The outfitter was well paid for this 5 day hunt.  I have hunted other drainages of this area for elk on my own and know it pretty well.  I have not gone back to hunt this on my own but someday I might, especially since I know he doesn't mess with mule deer hunts during elk muzzleloader season.  The outfitter may be dead and buried before I get time for another hunt in that area.  At this time I don't feel any remorse about packing in my own camp to hunt this area.  I guess after 15 years or so his dibs on the area have worn off  for me.  

So I guess the answer from me for Burnsie's Question is No, a one time guide fee does not preclude you from hunting there forever, I am not sure how long you have to wait but I would feel bad going to the same area the next year.

[2treks]

Like Dave B. I just re-read the first post.
In short my answer is yes it is dirty pool. And as I said before, the ax can swing both ways. some of the outfitters metioned above are the very reason I do not guide anymore. They lay claim to public ground and get physical and detructive when they get company. not my cup of tea. If both sides had a bit of morals and respect then the question would have no foothold.
   Like many here have mentioned, I would not do it. not to a guide and not to a friend.

[JohnV]

"It's public land. It's not your honey hole."

It may be public land and land that anyone can hunt, but the person who took you there did you a favor in showing you a productive place to hunt.  After all, you didn't know of the place...did you?  You are capitalizing on someone else's hard work and generousity.  Sure, you can return on your own without permission since it is public land...but you will likely have very few friends who will take you hunting a second time.

[Jeff Strubberg]

No, there's no favor involved.

We are talking about a guide who was paid.  a guide who is making his/her living taking hunters on to public grounds paid for by your tax dollars.

I think it's a pretty big favor that Joe Public foots the bill to provide ground for outfitters, don't you?

[Arrowhead80]

I don't know how many of you elk hunt but gps is no good unless your coordinates are on a bulls a$$.They can travel many miles in a day so just because they were there last year or even yesterday don't mean they are there when you get there.I think it's dirty to hunt someones spot but if i get close and hear a bugle it's on.I don't drive 1800 miles to make friends i go to kill elk.I've been there 3 times on PUBLIC LAND and have dealt with the a hole guides and they don't have one red cent of my money and never will.They don't care about you doing it on your own they want$$$.We have wallows we hunt year after year and the last time i was there someone had built a blind near it,now i've hunted it before but it's public land so his blind doesn't make it his spot.If he was there and tried to run me off i guess i would've shown him how we handle problems like this in the south,get over it or catch one in the lips.Out of state elk tags cost too much to try to pacify everyone so do what makes you happy as an individual,you can't make everyone happy!Agree or disagree this is just my opinion.Preston

[wapiti]

After rereading the post I sill say its dirty pool. You are talking about using a specifc act to lay  claim to a guides specific resource that makes him a living.  A lot more goes into guiding than scouting like keeping back country trails open for pack strings to manuver safely over the terrain for example. I AM NOT A GUIDE and NOT PARTICULAR about supporting of the guiding business as it is pretty sleazy in much the same way as used car salesman. BUT there are many fine outfitters/guides and to use a SPECIFIC act to encroach on there livelyhood is a rotten back stabbing thing to do. Like many said its public land and he don't own it, however there is lots of public lands in certain parts of the country. Use the knowledge he has displayed(pay attention dumb chit) and put it to use and go on your own in other drainages. Go find your own rubs,scrapes, wallows etc.

[Michael Arnette]

I never thought of that one. But I will probably never own a gps either.

[Michael Arnette]

Guiding is hard work and doesn't pay all that well either.

[woodworker]

I think it is a cheap shot to take advantage of some one like that regardless where they hunt, friend nabbing someone's honey hole or anything like it.  We hunt with traditional equipment and we like to do it ourselves on our own terms and I would bet most would choose to do-it- yourself any way over hiring a guide but; the guide is trying to make a living just like the rest of us and whom ever hires him should respect the work he has put in to making the hunt possible for his client.  I personally would rather just do the best I can with a little help from friends and enjoy the opportunity.