Ethics and the Essential Question of the Hunt

[Old York]

I simply accept the fact that hunting
involves killing and that I really
like venison.

At the grocery store,
the crap they try to pass
off as meat ah never mind...

[Don Stokes]

Yin and Yang, black and white, life and death. Opposite sides of the same coin.

[slivrslingr]

Yup, can't have life with out death.  EVERYTHING alive depends on death, even "inanimate" things, like TV's, cars, and bows, depend on the death of something in order to exist.  We can't separate our lives from nature and the so called "circle of life".  Good topic BTW!     Now if we could just get the bunny huggers to understand!

[Notso]

Killing is part of hunting. We hunt to eat and survive. We can choose today, of course, to purchase our meat, but this is in a way dishonest, as it seperates us from the fact that other living organisms must die to keep us alive. Even a vegitarian must kill plants to stay alive. Plants and animals are only slightly different on the cellular level.

I do not care for hunting being called a "sport". Sports are things we do for fun and involve competition.Basketball and baseball are sports. Hunting is far more important than any sport and involves the death of another living being.

I feel that calling hunting a sport is detrimental and had led to the competition between hunters (horn porn - my buck scored higher than yours) and the idea that animals are killed for "fun".

[High Knob]

I agree that “sport” is somewhat of a misnomer when it comes to hunting.  The seriousness of it makes it inappropriate to lump it in with bocce ball or badminton.

For me the ethical questions regarding killing whitetails have been easily resolved by their exploding numbers. There are many places locally where the deer have far surpassed holding capacity.  Thankfully, most reasonable people now regard hunting as the only cost effective and ethical way to control their numbers.

Our species has been on this planet for a long time. For most of that time we were characterized as hunter/gathers. I don’t know why so many people want to run away and hide from this legacy. Instead of trying to deny my predator instincts I acknowledge and celebrate them every time I go out in the field.

[leatherneck]

Lets face it folks, weather we like it or not, hunting is a sport. Very few people hunt to survive these days. Therefore, if you don't HAVE to hunt to survive, why do you do it? Otso said it, sports are things we do for fun. Isn't hunting fun? So you mean to tell me you kill something just because you like the taste of the meat? Talk about unethical. No, most of us do it because we like the challenge, being in nature, for the sport of it. There is nothing wrong with calling hunting a sport. Not all sports have competition. It only becomes a competition if you let it. Just my opinion of course.

Mike

[OkKeith]

Mr. Penguin,

As a student (and a professor no less) of literature, I am sure you could speak volumes regarding how the writings of a culture defines its views and beliefs. The portion of the publishing industry that caters to the outdoor pursuits, and specifically hunting, has seen excellent growth over the last few years. It seems that almost anyone can write a book about hunting and get it published now.

But even with industry growth, and all of our efforts at teaching others why hunting is integral to our heritage and culture, the number of hunters is still decreasing. My perspective shows this to be simple demographics. More and more people are leaving rural areas of the country and flocking to the cities (less than 1% of the population is still involved in agriculture). I feel this is similar to what happened in post-civil war America. Opportunities are drying up; people go looking for a means to sustain themselves. In many parts of the country individuals have less access to areas where hunting is allowed or lack the resources to get to hunting areas. As we move into the cities, we divorce ourselves from how the non-human influenced world works.

I think the idea of “nature” is manufactured. The word conjures an idyllic world where the lion lies down with the lamb, skunks don’t stink and deer talk. Walt Disney did more to distort the public’s view of wildlife than anyone else. Our society’s attachment to what one author called “Charismatic Macro-fauna” has caused no end of trouble. Yes, by all means save the whales! They are cute (or at least photogenic) and easy to carry images of on television, but those ugly little shrimpy looking things? Krill? Why, they look like bugs! Who cares about those? Never mind that without them, whales would be on the soup line so to speak. I doubt we will ever see a t-shirt that proclaims SAVE THE SEA SLUGS!! The same individuals who look down on us for hunting and killing animals are pretty adamant about not sharing their world with what are generally considered vermin or anything that might make the lawn look bad. The value scale seems to be skewed. Everyday we see footage of people protesting hunting. Where are the placards shouting SAVE THE COCKROACHES or TERMITES ARE PEOPLE TOO! What about PUT AN END TO ANTIBIOTICS, GERMS HAVE RIGHTS! It is pretty tough to garner donations if your poster critter is drab or unattractive.

My first experiences with death were in conjunction with hunting. It brought an understanding that our existence is fleeting. How can you appreciate life without an understanding of death? Back in the day, whenever that actually was, if you wanted to live, things had to die. I love to hunt. The pursuit of game defines my character. I suppose I should say I like to kill animals; cleanly, efficiently and with as little suffering as possible.

It would be so easy to wax philosophical about what the hunt means. We could put up an existential argument, and as traditional archers, invoke Kierkegaard and say, “The task must be made difficult, for only the difficult inspires the noble-hearted".  I think we should be honest and say we are no more elevated than those hunters who recorded their exploits in pigments on cave walls. We are driven by the same needs, the same biology and the same phsycology. Our publications just have higher production value.

Thanks for starting this dialouge.

OkKeith

[leatherneck]

WOW Keith, very well said.

[OkKeith]

Leatherneck,

See, that's what happens when I have too much time on my hands.

If I was busier, the post would have read,

"Yup, I like to hunt too."

Thanks,
OkKeith

[Don Stokes]

Very good, Keith, and well stated.

Personally I don't think "ethics" has anything to do with normal hunting, whether you call it "sport" or not. I've never considered hunting to be an ethical dilemma. We must eat meat to be healthy, and the meat doesn't kill itself.

Killing for thrills, just to see something die- now we're talking ethics!

[Covey]

I hunt because I love to! its not to sustain life, or because my faimly needs meat to survive! its just a love of the outdoors and a means to get away from what we call every day life!! Great post BTW there has been some excellant things said! I aggree, all the way around!! Jason

[Steve B.]

Interesting what Don Stokes says about some people are hunters and some not.  I've seen this too.  I was shooting and killing since I was 10 years old.  I just absolutely love the wild, animals, and especially hunting.
My father doesn't hunt and my son doesn't hunt.  I took a friend's kid with me hunting last year because the friend said the kid was driving him crazy, wanting to shoot and hunt squirrels and all.  He was right.  And the kid has all the natural instincts.

I also agree with Don's statement about ethics not playing a role in hunting.  When you start to put ethics on anything you are assuming some moral standard that governs overall behavior or thought.  If you do that you open up a true can of worms.

[James Wrenn]

Well to be honest I don't think about such things.I like to hunt so I do it.I like eating the animals I hunt so I kill them so I can.That is about as deep as I go on it.  

[mrpenguin]

Wow... this really took off!  

The discussion of whether or not hunting can be considered a "sport" is rather intriguing.  I've wrestled with that myself.  Is shooting from a tree a sport?  Is using bates, decoys, calls, etc... sport?  Interesting questions.  I agree with Leatherneck about calling hunting a sport.  I personally find immense joy in it.  Look at me, here I am in July, taking time to participate in a conversation about it!!  That speaks of my passion for it alone.  

As for ethics, there are ethics in hunting.  These ethics stem from responsibility.  For instance, I often let more animals go than I shoot because the shot doesn't feel right.  There may be only one small hole to shoot through or maybe the animal is a bit outside of a range that I feel comfortable shooting.  To be ethical is to be responsible.  It is respecting the animal's life and death.  The overall ethical question of hunting is simple... life feeds off of life.  Even green beans were once alive.

That all said, I think there are some practices that, though legal, seem unethical to me.  Most obviously, to me, is baiting.  It just doesn't seem right to put a stinky barrel out to draw in bears and take pot shots.  Canned hunts over baits seem unethical.  Trophy hunting is unethical.  The notion of shooting an animal SOLELY for the size of its rack or beard, or weight seems wrong.  Don't misunderstand me, I would love to have the opportunity to take a big buck or tom, but if I do, it should be the result of my work and luck, not the price I paid.  It MUST be about the hunt, not the size of the dead animal at the end.  It MUST be about the meat, not simply a head on wall.

So, I guess, I would say that the larger ethical question we all agree on: hunting is as natural as rain falling from the sky.  That said, as Don Stokes said "Killing for thrills, just to see something die- now we're talking ethics."  I would add, killing it for the thrill of its horns, beard, claws, skins, weight, or simply to be listed in some silly book that has a bunch of numbers in it, that's unethical.

[Steve B.]

mrpenguin,
I think the correlation to sports is whether hunting should be thrown in with the "ball" sports, such as football, basketball, etc., not whether certain types, or techniques, of hunting, are sporting.
I suppose you could make anything a sport in one sense, but, generally, sports have rules.

There ARE ethics in hunting but they are YOUR ethics.  But the only way to truly make true ethics for hunting is to first define what is or is not hunting and then try to determine parameters for all the possible variables and/or scenarios that one could encounter within the framework that you define as "hunting".  Once you do all of that you have basically created a set of rules that will define those ethics.  At that point you have just created a sport, or a religion.

But I think what I, and some others, are trying to say is that we do not necessarily want to go down that road.  I think many of us love hunting because we get away from laws, rules, and ethics that are imposed upon us by culture, sometimes overwhelmingly.  In the wilderness we are more free, and we don't want that to change.

[Mo. Huntin]

Kieth you made some excellent points.  I really liked that.  For me to read a post that long you better say something interesting fast or I will just skip it all together.  Very well done.

[mrpenguin]

Steve B.  Fair enough... I guess I just don't like some of the tactics used today.  They focus on the kill not the process.  That is my litmus test for ethical hunting: the focus should be the hunt, not the kill.  Of course we all want to be successful and kill the animals we hunt, but without the work of the process-i.e. riding an ATV up to a blind or tree with barrels set up for bears for a guarantied kill where the hunt simply chooses which bear is the biggest-is not really hunting as it should be in a culture that does not necessitate hunting for subsistence.  Just my thoughts...

[leatherneck]

I like what I'm reading and the respect for others posts that goes with it. I would like to ask though, do we not follow rules in hunting? I'm not talking about the DNR regulations, I'm talking about the rules of the land. Like don't shoot a sow with cubs(which is legal in some areas), or to put a deer down that has been seriousely wounded. Are these not rules that we as hunters try to follow? We all follow rules (written and unwritten). That is what shows our true ethics.

[James Wrenn]

The good thing about hunting is it is not a team sport.No set of rules set by others to govern you.If you don't want to hunt bait,use dogs ect, you simply don't have to.It is pretty much one of the last things a man can do.As long as it is within the law any ethics is a personal decision that should not be looked down on or tryed to change by others that think different. jmo

[tradtusker]

Originally posted by NorthernCaliforniaHunter:
I swung both ways in my day... I used to be a VEGAN for crying out loud! Then it hit me - HUNGER!

Trying to come to terms with the fact that I was wasting away and fighting my natural instincts I had a fabulous revelation one day: The least impacting, smallest footprint lifestyle a human can have is to hunt and gather. Even 'politically correct' farming is a declaration of war on the land, with boundaries and a pre-determination as to what will and will not live on a particular plot of land. It also takes a lot of trust in the Lord to set out into the wilderness and know that He provides us with the skill, knowledge and game to sustain us.

Not to mention, I don't know of a wolf, lion, or other predator who will bring the flesh of the animal together with spices from around the world, reverence from the heart and a prayerful thanksgiving amongst friends and family. We offer the animal a quicker death and level of adoration and respect that no other predator can come close to. IMHO.

i love that Juan way to go  


a good topic i like a lot of the reply's lots of good interesting points of view

i started hunting young, killed my first big game at 7 years old, we lived in the bush in South Africa
we had no tv
when i got back from boarding school if i was not put to work, i grabbed my pellet gun and me and my German short hair pointer would go hunt. i guess at the time i did not understand why or actually did not even take the time to think "why" i was doing it. It was just in me ..
 Now when i look back at it as a basic instinct deeply bread and past down from our hunter gatherer forefathers from the beginning.

My hunting dog was the same no one showed him how to hunt, but he knew ..deep inside him the same basic instinct ran in his veins passed down from his forefathers

Even back then it was not for survival, game way plentiful we killed a lot,  but we used what we killed and enjoyed doing it.

from then iv done what i can in life with what i determine basic instincts, law's of attraction, i dont used a bible to tell me what is wrong or rite my conscience does that for me every time ( it never fails to tell me when iv done something wrong) , simpler the better (however simple things can be very complex like... traditional archery) but you can always whittle it back down to something simple

iv looked into it and discussed it in great depth with others but i cannot override and always come back to that instinct

thats why i hunt