Ethics and the Essential Question of the Hunt

[Steve B.]

Leatherneck,
I'm saying what James Wrenn and others are saying.  
Laws and ethics are two different things but they can be the same thing.  The law says I can/cannot shoot such and such and animal, at such and such a time of year, etc..  Ethics say what is fair, decent, proper, etc., but they also say what is right.  So shooting a cub bear is illegal, and unethical.  But shooting a boar at 100 yds might only be unethical...but by who's standard?  Ethics are more subjective than laws.
But if all you are saying is that the laws frame the ethical standards then basically you are saying what we are.  Anything else, like treestands, ATV's, compound bows, and long shots, are personal......unless, of course, you are trying to make hunting something that it is not.

[Steve B.]

mrpenguin,
I agree with you and so I hunt the way I do, and probably the way you do.  But as soon as I say that what I am doing is right, or that someone else is wrong, then all of a sudden we have to sit down and define everything that we believe concerning hunting and give good reasons for them.  Because, if your reasons are not good, you will not have much of an impact in changing the minds of others, and what you will be left with are not converts, but enemies.

I really think one of the reasons that this ethical thing comes up regularly, if you really think about it, is because we struggle to develop some standard of whether we are doing what we are doing, right.   We naturally want to have these bounds in order to place ourselves, or others, onto this imaginary scoreboard in order to massage our egos and point fingers at the other camps who are doing it different, or wrong.
That is why we are forever looking for some icons, living or dead,  who can help us define what a great shot is, or what a great hunter is, and whether this guy, or that guy, will work as an idol in our newly defined sport or religion.

[Arne J]

Having grown up in the country, where life and death is all around you - whether in the cycle of raising and slaughtering domestic animals for food, or in the natural world - there was never a question for me of right or wrong regarding hunting.  It was just one method that life and death played out - with the key difference that both predator and prey had a reasonable chance of success in hunting.  

What could be more fulfilling or human than finding, outwitting, and harvesting food for the table?  On the farm it is an unnatural human devised environment where the animal is merely a piece of "potential meat" (with no doubt about the outcome), while when hunting it is a more natural cycle where predator and prey lock into a common quest for survival - with the prey winning more times than not.  

Do I feel a letdown after a successful hunt?  Yes, but it is a good feeling of accomplishment, compassion for the animal, and the knowledge that I am now responsible for turning the fruits of my labor into tasty meals, and that I am leaving what remains as a hearty feast for the local wild scavengers.

Personally I cherish the long hard hunt that may result in a doe as much, if not more than, a short easy hunt that bags a nice buck.  It is about the process and personal accomplishment, not the "trophy" that others may appreciate.  And knowing that you can take care of yourself and your family isn't that bad either!    

[Daddy Bear]

I've greatly enjoyed reading through this thread. I've already noted Juan's post as a standout amongst the many great posts in this thread, but I must also say that Keith's post was equally outstanding!  I have little to add as you guys have expressed my feelings on this topic in written words far better than mine.

Best

[NorthernCaliforniaHunter]

John 14:16 - "And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Counselor to be with you forever - the Spirit of truth. The world cannot accept him, because it neither sees him nor knows him. But you know him, for he lives with you and will be in you."

In other words, LISTEN TO YOUR HEART.    

[Curtiss Cardinal]

This is another post I will reply to before reading what others have written as I wish to have this come from my own mind and spirit "unflavored" by others that have already spoken.
Hunting is a primal drive within us. Some deny it. Some feel guilty for it. These emotional responses spring from a person's upbringing and educational endoctrination. The few feral children that have been found in history have always been found to be omnivores with a large part of their diet being any and all sources of animal protien they can acquire. None have ever been found to be solely vegetarian or even prodominately so. As a lioness or a wolf feel nothing but possibly a sense of accomplishment and a thrill at the kill a human that was honest with hisself would admit to feeling the same way. To mourn the passage of the animal we have killed for food and all the other reasons we hunt is not something to regret or feel remorse over. Often times hunters talk about the responsibilty they have as hunters to the game they pursue. All that is usually said is platitudes for the sake of the ears of the nonhunting. We don't owe it to the animals we hunt to follow the law and the ethics we set up before ourselves about hunting and fishing. The law is about politics and the ethics to appease those we feel threatened by as well as the code we have each personally chosen to live our lives by. So we owe how we hunt to other humans and ourselves, not to the game we pursue. We often say we owe the animals a humane death. This is something we do to save ourselves turmoil more than the animals suffering. I say this because of all the predators in the would ONLY man kills humanely. Cats strangle their prey, dogs disembowel them, hyenas hold them in place and eat them alive. All chase them down first and if you've ever been chased by a bully as a child you know the fear and stress that brings; and you know the encounter will not be lethal. A squirrel knows the goshawk means to kill and eat him. The goshawk does it cleaner than most animal predators but still far below the human, humane standard.
I've made a bad shot on an animal, spent hours following the trail, coming up empty handed and feeling sick to my stomach. All the emotions one feels at a time like that stem from learned behaviour. There is nothing wrong with that as it is one of the things that makes us human. We owe the animals we hunt what we decide we owe them, because we decide to owe it to them. They only expect to have to watch their backsides everyday.
One thing I forgot to mention before part of the reason for game laws and hunting ethics is to make the act harder to be successful at so that when successful one is more appreciative. You see we are such effective predators that if we didn't put limits on ourselves we could concievably kill everything.
Hunting is not a sport, hunting is a primal. spiritual, mystic part of the human psyche from everylasting to everlasting the drive to hunt is in our very makeup.
Oh and for those of you that think Native Americans "lived in balance with Nature and never killed more than they could use, etc."
The most widely held theory of why the mastedon went extinct is because aboriginal Americans hunted them to that point. They ran whole herds off cliffs. They encircled them with fire and pelted them with atlatl darts and arrows until every herd member was down. Yes they used every bit of everyone they could; and yes they did only kill as much as they could eat. However that was as many as there were because the tribe, like the herd or pack or wolves, always grows to the maximum caring capacity of the land. Make jerky out of a whole herd of mastedon and no babies or small children die of starvation over Winter.
So much of what hunting is now in the 21st century is shallow in it's meaning and petty in its ends. It is held up as a measure of manhood but it is not anymore. It is too often the measure of how much money someone is willing to spend to have someone else do all the leg and brain work to put the so called hunter where he or she needs to be to make the shot on a "trophy" animal.
For me hunting is a trilling wire in my blood that makes me wait longingly for Autumn or seek other climes in other seasons to answer the primordial call of what my ancestors have left in my very cells.

[NorthernCaliforniaHunter]

YES!!! YES!!! YES!!!!

EXCELLENT!

[OkKeith]

Mr. Penguin,

Thanks again for starting this thread and the discussion that has followed, you have no idea how much I enjoy it.

Ethics embodies the slippery slope a lot of people like to wail about. These issues defy gravity in that they can slide both up and down that greased hillside. Earlier you posted what you believe is ethical in regards to hunting over baits and that ethical hunting is really about the hunt, not the kill.

What is a definition of bait? The dictionary says that bait is anything that serves as an enticement or something used to lure fish or other animals into danger so they can be trapped or killed. The corn feeder is bait and using one is baiting. This use of feed (corn, sugar beets or the latest bagged sweet-treat) as a lure is legal in my state and many others. Some think that the whole act itself is not cricket. Others are OK with it based on a sliding scale of distance from a feeder. My home state of Oklahoma has even codified this by saying that you must be 100 yards from a feeder if you are turkey hunting. No such law exists for deer.

What other things fit the definition of bait? Any of the deer pee, estrus bomb and tarsal stink type products are bait according to our definition. Hunting row crops or planting food plots fits the definition of bait. A decoy would be a kind of bait. I am not trying to end this deliberation but if we are going to condemn the use of bait as unethical, we should include all types of bait. Otherwise, we are headed down gradient with limited friction when we try to say what is or is not kosher.

What about the idea that the hunt is about the hunt, not the kill? This is not true for me, it is about the kill. That’s why I am there. Hunting can not be defined without killing in the discourse. If the purpose was to only hunt, as in engage in tracking, following or pursuing game to its final location, the killing is gratuitous. If the killing is gratuitous, would that not be unprincipled by the idea that killing for no purpose is unethical? If the reason for the hunt is not the kill, then a camera would be a more ethical choice than a bow.

I say the hunt is all about the kill. It is the underlying reason for being in the woods with a bow. Killing something with my hands or a tool in order to use it does not bother me. I don’t even believe that the only justified reason for killing something is for food. Coming home empty handed means an unsuccessful hunt. That doesn’t bother me at all. Hunting is one of a few things in my life where success or failure really doesn’t matter to anyone but me.

Thanks again for starting this thread. It has been a lot of fun.

OkKeith

[larryh]

i have read all the posts on this thread with a great deal of interest. the diversity of opinions seem to reflect to some degree on what sort of environment people grew up in and life experiences after reaching adulthood.
i grew up killing things for food. i still have the mindset i had when i was 5-6 years old and, with my brother, killed grouse, fish, and anything else that looked like it was edible. (we spent every summer alone in the mountains keeping track of our fathers cattle).
i attach no spiritual significance to killing something i want to eat, i really would'nt kill something i overly respected, i have never killed anything in gods name.
i have never taken a picture of a dead animal and really have no emotion about looking at pictures other people take other than wondering sometimes why they took that picture, don't kill for sport, don't really "hunt" in the same context as has been expressed here. i go kill an animal if i decide i want some of that kind of meat to eat. no other reason, no emotion before, during or after except the satisfaction of enjoying the meat.
guess i am very pragmatic in my view on most things.
i have a bunch of geldings and cow dogs i use for ranch work and have never "petted" any of them. i like them all and take very good care of them, but they are tools i use just like the equipment i have and i take very good care of that too!

[leatherneck]

I must say larryh, very different perspective. Although I don't totally agree with some of the issues, I respect your decisions and the way you stand beside them.
Keith made a good statement. We are all out there for the kill(one way or another) or we would not carry a weapon at all. I can say that I enjoy everything else about the hunt, but ultimately it's for the harvest.

[OkKeith]

Larry,

I am familiar with your view point, and honor it as the view point of every adult male I respected when I was growing up. Both grandfathers, all my uncles and my Dad had much the same mind set.

When I was very young, but mobile enough to follow Dad on quail hunts, I didn’t understand why his English Setters didn’t want to “play”. They seemed aloof, and down right onery cusses sometimes. He would tell me,

“Son, they’re working dogs, not pets. Leave’em alone and let them do their job. THAT'S what makes them happy.”

I admit to being a little softer hearted towards my Labradors (too soft hearted according to every woman in my life), but I have to also say that when I was a kid, Granpa had one particular mule that I would pray for God to kill on the spot!

The perception of kindness is no measure of how a person feels about things. There are quite a few people who profess to love animals, but support actions that are actually harmful to individuals of a species and to populations as a whole.

OkKeith

[Lizard lick]

I have not read all the responses just the first comment/question. I believe that I was given by God, instincts and with the self preservation instinct comes eating. I believe that taking enjoyment in only the death of some thing is wrong. But I will eat what I kill. The true fulfillment that one gains from being in nature is not the same for me when I am just hiking or out stump shooting. The fullest feeling of freedom, fulfillment and being a part of life is when I am on a hunt. When the prey is dead I am only beginning the job/ task there is now my responsibility to that animal and to the OLD man who taught me this wonderful way. For I only wish I could hunt with Him again one happy day, maybe in the next world. I also must say I hope that the boy of mine will feel this connection to the earth, God or what ever y'all might call it. And any one out there might still hear their Grandpa saying If you didn't get skunked once in a while you would not want to go so much, and keep that head down quit peeping, I sure miss that. I bid all whom hunt a safe day in the field.

[Bonebuster]

Some on here have mentioned that "we" no longer NEED to hunt.

Personally, I don`t believe this. In fact, I believe many people are lost, and never really get comfortable with life because of an empty space. A space meant for our predatory actions, and the chemicals released by our glands, when our brains tell them to do so.

Could be, for some of us, hunting is as important as any other part of our lives. Could I live without hunting? For a time I guess, but I would not be me.

Could be, that in this day, with the way things are, hunting is more important than ever!!!

[MJB]

This Spanish philosopher wrote in Meditations On Hunting "One does not hunt in order to kill; on the contrary, one kills in order to have hunted..." Jose Ortega y Gasset

[Featherbuster]

All i have to say.....WOW.  This has to be one of the most interesting threads I have ever read.  I can connect to almost everyone's words except for Californa about being a vegan.  

[GRINCH]

I grew up hunting,my family ate what we shot or caught,while it wasn't neccessary for survival it did help in the long run,not only that hunting provided a great family activity,where my father and uncles shared their knowledge with us.

[dan ferguson]

In the Bible, Jacob had sons some were hunters and some not. I,m okay with that. I,ll not condem one who isn,t and would like to be treated the same. I didn,t always think this way, If you didn,t hunt I had no common ground with these people, but as you get older you find some. As far as baiting, my stand on that is I,ll walk in there shoes before I make a judgement. In some parts of Canada how many bears would die if it was not legal? How long before they got out of hand without baiting? I,ll not condem them because I haven,t been there. I got toasted on the subject of sneaking up on turkeys because it was more intresting to me, but the people who posted negitivly about have never hunted where I hunt. Hunt to fully enjoy the passion and be glad God gave you the passion, because some don,t have it.

[Shaun]

Bing Crosbey's wife said, "he is a golfer who sings to support his golfing."

MO Sherpa told me, "I spend 2 weeks elk hunting and 50 weeks getting ready to do it again."

I have hunted since I was a kid. Sling shot, bow, BB gun, pellet gun, 22, 410, 12ga, wheelie, muzzle loader, now back to the bow. Its a progression that is common. Some stop at different points, but if you are on this site you understand.

We are only a couple thousand years past the hunter gatherer state that was (still is in some parts of the world) our evolved - or God given, depending on your beliefs - natural state for a long time before.

It seems normal to me that some folks are hunters, have a passion for it, have realized and embraced it. The goal is meat. But the goal is not the motivation. The motivation has to be a passion for the experience. If you've got it, why fight it?

[maineac]

A lot of great thoughts. I come the opposite of most, growing up in a non-hunting and fishing family.  No bb guns, heck even darts were to dangerous for my mom.  But it was always in me.  Love animals, loved the outdoors. spent as much time as possible.  Got to college and started bow hunting and progressed to all styles of hunting.  As a result I have thought about this topic and discussed it with non hunters a lot.  Ethics and laws are the product of a society, and a persons growth and opportunities. Laws are established to set a base of societal conduct.  Game laws primarily to ensure the continuation of the species.  The more well of a society or person the more they can afford to expand upon the limitations of the laws.  If my hunting was a the main source of my meat, my ethics would be much different.  Baiting, night hunting and taking any shot, marginal or not, would be come the norm. Anything to bring sustinance to me and mine.  As a person that can afford to "buy" food if I do not bring home my own my ethics allow me to be more selective in how I hunt and the techniques I use.  I try not to judge others for their choices as their life experiences vary from my own.  I can only control what I do and how I move through life.  I know for me to live something must die.  Whenever possible I try to participate as much as possible in the process. I love the hunt and revel in all aspects, including the kill. I feel the hole i create in the woods when I remove a creature, but know it will be filled again. The need to be out in the woods and hunting is deep inside me and without it I would be incomplete.

[smokin joe]

Great thread!
Birth is natural, and death is natural. As humans we have ancient natural predatory instincts built into us. At some deep level, deep below our everyday thinking, we are all predatory. Those of us who hunt are answering the call to our predatory instincts in a natural and direct way. This is much better than being a non-hunting predator who answers his  predatory instincts by letting them get twisted into preying on other humans. We have all seen that in big city violence and in corporate board room ruthlessness. I would rather be a hunter.
I eat, therefore I hunt.
Joe