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Author Topic: state antler-pt restrictions  (Read 1657 times)

Offline geno

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Re: state antler-pt restrictions
« Reply #60 on: August 08, 2009, 12:53:00 AM »
I know this may sound like a cop-out, but I really don't have an opinion on EAB. I'm not a wildlife biologist, so I trust such matters to those who have the proper education and data to know what they're talking about.

Jason are those the same guys telling us how many point a deer has to have? I wonder how much of this decission is made by politicians vs wildlife bioligist ??
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Offline Curtis Haden

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Re: state antler-pt restrictions
« Reply #61 on: August 08, 2009, 01:42:00 AM »
Dave Bulla certainly makes some good points (no pun intended).  I still disagree though, that antler restrictions contribute to the health of a deer herd.  Natural selection; ie...bigger, more dominate bucks doing most of the breeding -- okay, I can buy that.  But bigger (racked) deer does not necessarily equate healthier deer.

Backing up a little bit...

 
Quote
Originally posted by Don Stokes:
My personal belief is that the game & fish department people are probably doing the best they can, with the benefit of the wildlife being first before filling the coffers, and I intend to support their efforts, rather than trying to second-guess their motivations.
Quote
Originally posted by geno:
Jason are those the same guys telling us how many point a deer has to have? I wonder how much of this decission is made by politicians vs wildlife bioligist ??
I too think MDC does a great job of wildlife management.  I believe that's because of the excellent people working in that organization, who truly care about Missouri's wildlife and habitat.  I do support the efforts of those folks.

Having worked for the state for about 20 years however, I have also come to believe it is our responsibility to question the motivations of the fine fellows in upper management and politically appointed positions of any government organization.  The people who write the codes and statutes need to hear what we think and why.  I can promise you they are hearing from the special interest folks.
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Offline onewhohasfun

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Re: state antler-pt restrictions
« Reply #62 on: August 08, 2009, 04:10:00 AM »
I am with you Dave. Its not about horn porn. It's about removal of an entire age class of animals from the herd. For some reason whitetails get different treatment. I want to see Mother Nature in all her glory. A 10 in. bass or a 10 pounder. A jake turkey is fine but I still want a 10 in. beard and 2 in. spurs. Nobody wants to shoot a bear with a rubbed and shabby coat. How about a rocky mt. elk hunt, 3 years in the planning, and never see a herd bull? Do you want to look at Bo Derek or Rosanne Barr? My wife does not want a cloudy, brown, 1/4 carat diamond. I saw a documentary on elephants where poachers had eleminated virtually all of the mature bulls. The juvenile bulls acted like total A-holes, became beligerant. They disrupted the feeding, breeding and the migratory behavior of elephants for a thousand years in just a short few. With no big guys around to show them the way they didn't know how to act like, like, like, well, like elephants should. When I go thru life I want to see the best of what Mother Nature has to offer. A ruby red 1 lb. tomato. A majestic 100 ft. blue spruce. AND ESPECIALLY A BRUISER 5 YEAR OLD WHITETAIL BUCK! I don't like restricting what a man can shoot. I just hope the DNR is basing their rules on something more than how many tags they can sell.
Tom

Offline Don Stokes

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Re: state antler-pt restrictions
« Reply #63 on: August 08, 2009, 08:19:00 AM »
If you want to see how politicians manage deer herds, look at Mississippi. The professional wildlife managers are 100% against baiting deer, but it will probably be legalized within a few years, because the politicians control things. A few of them want to hunt over corn piles, so "feeding" deer has already been legalized, as long as you're not in direct line of sight of the covered feeder. As if that makes a big difference. It won't be long before they go all the way. The best way to spread disease in deer and turkey populations is to concentrate their feeding in one spot, so that if one gets sick, they all do. Sorry, another subject.

When point restrictions were put in place at the request of the professional wildlife managers, the politicians gutted the potential effectiveness by defining a point as any point that any size ring will hang on. A bump on an antler base fits this description, so a deer doesn't really have to have 4 points after all. And that's not 4 points on a side, it's 4 points total. Big deal.

Wildlife management should be left to the professionals. Why do so many hunters (and politicians) think that they could do a better job, without formal training or experience?

It's been my impression that expensive out-of-state tags are meant to limit outsiders more than to bring in more money. If they wanted to bring in more money, I think they would lower the out-of-state costs so more hunters could afford it, and make it up in volume. Nonresident hunters stay in hotels, eat in restaurants, and buy lots of stuff in general while they're in the host state, so more nonres hunters would be a stimulus to the economy, if you'll forgive my use of the phrase.   :rolleyes:
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Offline joebuck

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Re: state antler-pt restrictions
« Reply #64 on: August 08, 2009, 08:47:00 AM »
Don. I just checked our NEW regs....get ready..............now we're just on a Spread Restriction!!..... Delta is 12" spread and Hills a 10" spread....Oh yeah..and regs say adjust a little bit in judging Delta deer because deer are bigger..
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Offline Dave Bulla

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Re: state antler-pt restrictions
« Reply #65 on: August 08, 2009, 08:51:00 AM »
Good post Don.

Sorry to hear that Mississippi has allowed the politicians to corrupt the plans of the game biologists.  Like I said, it all comes down to how much do you trust those in charge.  What you say about the definition of a point is a joke.  I can't believe they did that!  I suspect you could kill a spike and find 3 little bumps on the pedicel burr that would hang a ring....  You're right to say they should leave it to the professionals.  Like someone else said, it's kinda like government health care where the government decides what care you get instead of a doctor.

AS for out of state tags being expensive to deter or limit the number of hunters.... that's true up to a point I expect.  It's just another tool.  They try to find the point where they make good $$$$ and still get people to buy tags without being over run by out of staters.  

Kansas and Colorado come to mind.  Kansas has some great deer hunting but non res tags cost more than the average elk hunt.  Still, a niche of hunters will pay it and gladly.  Not me, I can't afford it and I've got friends that would let me hunt there for free.  Then on elk tags, most states have a lottery system but Colorado stil sells some over the counter (Or at least did a few years back when I went) and it's the 1st choice of most hunters on a budget.  The locals though complain about all the out of staters just like back in PA where people complained about all the guys from Jersey and New York.  

It all comes back to the balancing act.  If you're an optimist, you can maybe feel that they are trying to keep everyone happy.  If a pessimist, people think they're trying to screw everyone.  Maybe if you're a realist, one or the other might actually be true.  A well managed state organization where the biologists get final say but have access to input from lobbyists AND hunters is a good thing and antler restrictions are just a tool to be used by them.  In places where the state is corrupting the idea of proper management to their own needs, the state bowhunting organizations need to raise their voices and be heard.  It may not help at first but I think it does in the long run.
Dave


I've come to believe that the keys to shooting well for me are good form, trusting the bow to do all the work, and having the confidence in the bow and myself to remain motionless and relaxed at release until the arrow hits the mark.

Offline jcar315

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Re: state antler-pt restrictions
« Reply #66 on: August 08, 2009, 10:00:00 AM »
In PA the Game Commission can only make suggestions but some other department in the state government has the "final say." The people who serve in that department (or committee) are either elected or appointed!

States use the gun season opening day to "manage the herd" and not any other season. They know that the 1st day gun season harvest will either "make or break" their harvest expectations. Bad weather = low harvest. All decisions revolve around that one day and gun hunters.

States like PA want out of state hunters and they want them to come and pump $$$ into the local economies of all those out of the way little towns. I saw the numbers once (I think in the PA Game News magazine) and the money that out of state hunters bring in relative to the number of licenses sold was amazing! there is no quota on the # of out of state licenses sold but there is a quota on the number of antlerless permits issued.

I guess I would fall on the disagree with antler restrictions side of this argument. The states are managing for "big bucks" in hopes to generate more $$$$$
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Offline Mojostick

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Re: state antler-pt restrictions
« Reply #67 on: August 08, 2009, 10:06:00 AM »
The point of antler restrictions, no pun intended, is not for "big antlers". The point is, many area's have too many antlerless deer and point restrictions are meant to guide hunters away from shooting any yearling buck and attempts to get more hunters to shoot antlerless deer by making it so killing the easy to kill yearling buck is mostly taken off the table.

As times change and we have less hunters and more and more deer and growing herds, we need to accept that different management policies will be needed.

Hunters often confuse the purpose for deer seasons and wrongly believe that deer seasons are somehow about them. The truth is, we have deer seasons as a way to manage deer herds. Deer hunters ARE the managers. We shouldn't always cast blame at our state DNR's. It's WE who make the management decisions everytime we release an arrow or pull a trigger on a firearm.

Deer hunting regulations do not manage deer, they manage deer hunters. And maximizing hunter utility, in the face of growing herds and declining hunter numbers is a must.

If deer hunters cannot or will not kill enough antlerless deer, then buck rules must be tailored to essentially forcefully guide hunters from killing only bucks if they want meat in the freezer. And left to their own devices, most hunters prefer to kill animals with headgear.

A side bonus of antler restrictions is that more bucks will be allowed to mature and then the herd age structure improves and hunters have the increased chance of really having their heart crank up because the odds are far better with antler restrictions of having a 10 yard staredown with a mature monarch of the forest.

A concern to bowhunters should be, if in 10-15 years the hunter numbers really nose dive as the baby boomers age and herds only continue to grow, state agencies will have little option but to elimate "archery" seasons and they'll have to open long "all weapons" seasons and firearms hunters will be hunting next to bow hunters.

Don't get me wrong, I rifle hunt too and enjoy it. But archer's do not want to have to compete with a firearms hunter with a 7MM Mag sitting across the property line from you, or if public land, possibly a few hundred yards from you.

We should be willing to try different regulation options as a way to still preserve the core of our traditional hunting seasons, otherwise we'll lose more than we can believe.

Take the economy for example. I'm from Michigan, the worst place in the nation. Many have been screaming here for 30 years that major changes were needed here otherwise we'd lose it all. Things like diversifying industry, modernizing, cutting workforces before a crash, etc. But many wanted to change nothing, and look where we are now.

Change is constant and change is needed. I realize that's counter-intuitive for us traditional bowhunters who attempt to freeze time in certain ways.

But nothing about antler restrictions will change "how" we hunt, other than certain animals may be off limits for harvest for a year.

Now, if we constantly resist evolving hunter management changes, then we may really lose something.

Hunters not only have the responsibility of their own actions and ethics, but they also must take responsibility for the bigger picture of overall herd management.

Offline geno

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Re: state antler-pt restrictions
« Reply #68 on: August 08, 2009, 10:29:00 AM »
All I can say is I hope It works . Whatever IT is.
And if in three yr I have to start Killing Big Bucks because that is what I am seeing.. so be it !  :bigsmyl:
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Offline geno

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Re: state antler-pt restrictions
« Reply #69 on: August 08, 2009, 10:37:00 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Curtis Haden:
[
Having worked for the state for about 20 years however, I have also come to believe it is our responsibility to question the motivations of the fine fellows in upper management and politically appointed positions of any government organization.  The people who write the codes and statutes need to hear what we think and why.  I can promise you they are hearing from the special interest folks. [/QB]
Curtis, One of the MDC  reps met with us in Jeff city about a yr and a half ago at the UBM event but I think their mind was already made up..
"Learning how to shoot a bow is easy if you learn the right way"..Howard Hill

Online kennym

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Re: state antler-pt restrictions
« Reply #70 on: August 08, 2009, 11:27:00 AM »
Up here,I think it has increased the # of bucks,including big bucks(140"+ to me). We have had the 4pt rule for several years now.

At first I thought it was useless,but I think it affects firearms hunters more,they have time to look him over before they shoot. I'm betting a lot of legal bucks get passed now because they just aren't as big as first thought. A few extra seconds of evaluation  may keep them from being "brown and down"

I would just as soon shoot does and watch little bucks pass by as shoot the first deer to come past. Look what I'd miss by tagging out early and not being able to hunt all season!LOL

That said,there is a hog of a 3x3 where I hunt,I've seen him for five years now! Let me tell ya,he looks funny with 1 - 12" tine on top!  Also saw what I believe to be his offspring the other day,3x3 with an 18" spread..... Hope the old boy has a sticker somewhere this year!!!
Stay sharp, Kenny.

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Offline Don Stokes

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Re: state antler-pt restrictions
« Reply #71 on: August 08, 2009, 12:08:00 PM »
Wow, Joey, I had no idea that the regs were changing in MS again.

Here's the explanation for the change in the regs:

"Research indicates the 4-point law allowed the harvest of better quality yearling bucks, while protecting older-aged spikes and 3-point bucks. The result has been a decrease in antler size within age classes of older bucks. The combination of the 4-point law, high hunting pressure, and lower reproduction results in the over-harvest of bucks and a decrease in antler size. To prevent these problems, yearling bucks must be allowed to reach older age classes."

"These antler criteria will protect almost 100% of the 1 1/2 year old bucks. This protection will prevent over-harvest of bucks and will improve antler size as bucks get older. These protected bucks will improve skewed buck:doe ratios, resulting in higher reproduction."

It then goes on to describe how to evaluate a 10" or 12" spread, and 13" or 15" main beam length. Bucks in zones 1 and 2 must have 10" inside spread (and the accompanying picture seems to show outside spread) or a 13" main beam. In zone 3 (the Miss. delta), it's 12" inside or 15" main beam.

This should be interesting. I've hunted private clubs that have inside spread restrictions, and if you don't see the deer head-on it's almost impossible to judge. Maybe the main beam length alternative will allow side judgments, but I predict that a lot of small bucks will be left in the woods, or retrieved after dark.

No more "any size point, any size ring" BS! At least that's an improvement!

I do hope this works. The logic seems valid, except for the part about lower reproduction results. I think yearling bucks will breed if there are no older bucks to suppress them. The yearling does sure will.
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Offline Don Stokes

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Re: state antler-pt restrictions
« Reply #72 on: August 08, 2009, 12:16:00 PM »
Dave, Mississippi would be the most politically corrupt state in the Union, if it wasn't for Louisiana!!   :)
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Offline Curtis Haden

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Re: state antler-pt restrictions
« Reply #73 on: August 08, 2009, 12:38:00 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Don Stokes:
It then goes on to describe how to evaluate a 10" or 12" spread, and 13" or 15" main beam length. Bucks in zones 1 and 2 must have 10" inside spread (and the accompanying picture seems to show outside spread) or a 13" main beam. In zone 3 (the Miss. delta), it's 12" inside or 15" main beam.
Zoinks, Scoob!!!  It's official!  MS is using CRAZY regs in order to sker them MO boys into accepting a simple little "4-point-on-a-side" rule.    :smileystooges:
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Offline straitera

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Re: state antler-pt restrictions
« Reply #74 on: August 08, 2009, 12:48:00 PM »
Yessir! Much prefer larger mature animals anyway. Therefore, restriction management makes sense. Culling does also.
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Offline Dave Bulla

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Re: state antler-pt restrictions
« Reply #75 on: August 08, 2009, 12:50:00 PM »
"Dave, Mississippi would be the most politically corrupt state in the Union, if it wasn't for Louisiana!!" [Smile]

Don, funny you should say that....it's actually what I was thinking about Louisiana.

Sounds like your state is maybe making some slow progress, realizing past mistakes and taking some corrective action.  Lets hope they keep it up!

This whole topic of regulations and restrictions reminds me of what a friend of mine used to say about union labor contracts (he was a steward).  Basically it was "There is nothing better than a good contract.... But nothing worse than a bad one."  Same goes for deer management plans I suspect eh?
Dave


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Online Pat B

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Re: state antler-pt restrictions
« Reply #76 on: August 08, 2009, 12:53:00 PM »
We put restrictions on our club to get the "shoot anything" guys to study each deer before shooting. With a little observation you can judge the age and health of the deer. Body shape and size comparison with other deer nearby will allow you to let the young deer walk and help prevent shooting fawn bucks. There are plenty of does out there for meat and by eliminating more of them the herd gets a better buck/doe ratio which leads to a healthier herd.
   We are restricted 15" 8pt or bigger. Since we went to this policy about 10 years ago we have seen more bucks and larger bucks. In GA where our club is you are allowed 10 does each year(state regs) and I think now you can buy(for $5 each) more doe tags in addition to the 10.
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Offline Jason R. Wesbrock

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Re: state antler-pt restrictions
« Reply #77 on: August 08, 2009, 02:21:00 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by geno:
Jason are those the same guys telling us how many point a deer has to have? I wonder how much of this decission is made by politicians vs wildlife bioligist ??
Unfortunately, here in Illinois the biologists get pushed aside by the politicians. Whenever a new change is proposed, it's always a politician we have to contact for comment, not a biologist.

Offline Jason R. Wesbrock

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Re: state antler-pt restrictions
« Reply #78 on: August 08, 2009, 02:33:00 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Don Stokes:

It's been my impression that expensive out-of-state tags are meant to limit outsiders more than to bring in more money. If they wanted to bring in more money, I think they would lower the out-of-state costs so more hunters could afford it, and make it up in volume.  
I can (and will) only speak from my experience in IL. But here, it's all about the money.

Several years ago the president of one of our state bowhunting organizations was invited to meet with our new DNR director. Nonresident tag limits and prices were on the agenda. The state bowhunting organization in question opposed increasing the price of nonresident tags. The director's opening comments were something along the lines of how IL has one of the best deer herds in the country and it was time people started paying for it.

Look where we are now. Not long ago, nonresident tags in IL were a little over $100. At that time, IL had no nonresident cap and sold less than 10,000 tags per year. Now, a nonresident will have to spend around $500 to hunt antlered deer, and the state has a nonresident cap that they increase so it always exceeds demand. In essence, there is no nonresident cap at all. There are tags left over every season, and every season they sell more tags than the previous year.

Increase the price several fold and sell every tag we can? That decision was from a politician, not a biologist.

Offline Mojostick

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Re: state antler-pt restrictions
« Reply #79 on: August 08, 2009, 02:37:00 PM »
When Pennsylvania went to antler regs, that was driven by Dr. Gary Alt and other deer biologists.

I had the chance to talk to Dr. Alt for about 20 minutes at the QDMA National Convention in Grand Rapids where he was a keynote speaker. The guy sure makes a compelling case in casual conversation and gives an extremely compelling presentation speech.

If you've ever seen Dr. Alt's presentation, you'll not only want antler rules for your state, you'll likely demand them!

Here's a very interesting article on the topic in PA...

 http://www.northamericanwhitetail.com/huntingtactics/NAW_0907_10/

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