Heavy # effect later in life?

[Curveman]

I'm not insulting anyone nor saying that everyone who CHOOSES to shoot a light bow is weak or lazy. If anyone wants to take my bemoaning the softening of the American male, the fact that many of our generation can not do one tenth of the physical labor that their daddy's could as a PERSONAL insult, well, I can't control for that. People read things their own way. ALL of our insurance premiums are going through the roof as we pay for the overstuffed and overfed etc. It is a fair criticism and a call for action that previous President's Fitness Councils have given. We who shoot heavy bows (and I consider my 60 only moderate) have come under attack as well for being) "all about the ego." etc. I have posted many times that the only reason I went for a 60 instead of a middle 50's was I was told that that was a legal requiremnt to hunt moose in NH. Seems like there may be a bit of defensiveness on both sides. For a more humorous way of saying what I am trying to say, take the kids to see WALL-E. Watch the adults who, through inactivity, can no longer walk, ride about on floaters and play "virtual golf ."etc

[pseman]

I certainly agree with your observation of the state of most in America today Curveman.

[SELFBOW19953]

I shoot what I like because it pleases me.  I am not more of a man because I draw more weight or less of a man because I draw less.  I'm very aware of all my shooting faults.  I know my limits, weight wise and range wise, and I stay within those limits.  You can only kill an animal so dead.  If heavy weights, or low weights, blow your skirt up, go for it.  I'll happily shoot with you, so long as you accept my shooting the same as I accept yours.

[GMMAT]

How many people shooting 80# (and higher) compounds do you think are doing it for their ego?  How many do you think (%-age) are personally (regardless of the prey they're hunting) over-bowed?

Why would it be any different in trad. archers?

I'm not insulting anyone either, curveman.  Just asking the questions.

[David McLendon]

It all depends on the individual, how you draw, how well you maintain yourself through life. If you can shoot it well (be honest with yourself), with good form and you enjoy it then do it. The world is full people ready and willing to tell you what to do and how to live. I'm 52 y/o and have several bows from 57# on up, my go to bow is a 83# Black Widow longbow. If I listened to a lot of people I'd be shooting 45# at my age.

[Don Stokes]

Curveman, I just lost 12 pounds and am down to a svelte 158 at 5'8. Walked a mile while judoing yesterday. I still prefer less poundage these days.  

You are absolutely right about the pitiful shape of America's population.

[RLA]

I will certainly agree with curveman on the state of America, but back to the question ask about heavy bows. This is always a touchy subject, when macho and ego are involved but there does seem to be a lot of guys that shot heavy bows in there younger years that are paying for it now. It's just something to keep in mind because after your hurt it's too late.

[LimbLover]

I totally agree that being in shape and weight training will ultimately keep you doing what you do longer - but I also stand by the statement that not everyone who exercises and is physically fit can shoot a heavy bow.

There are simply too many exceptions to the rule walking around my local range.

I believe that good form rules the day when it comes to archery. It is the same with weight training - lifting with proper form prevents injury. Shooting with proper form prevents injury.

Knowing your limits per session is the biggest proponent of injury prevention in ANYTHING.

You can lift TOO much, you can shoot TOO much. As the muscle is fatigued and pushed passed fatigue - risk of injury increases to the joints who are now feeling more shock and strain.

[mnbwhtr]

There gets to be a point of deminishing returns on heavy bows, by that I mean does a 60# shoot 10% faster than a 50#. I started in 1965 with a 50# Bear magnum, The next year I traded for a 47# Kodiak and in the years shortly thereafter increased to 55, then 61, then 75, then 88 looking for the best trajectory I could get and eventually ended up at 75#. I shoot Bear t/d's so have a lot of sets of limbs to experiment with and in 1998 started chronographing different sets of limbs shooting the same arrows(600 gr).To my surprise the difference in my 55# limbs and my 65# limbs was only 3 feet per second. I immediately started shooting the 55's for the ease. I'm 61 now and shooting 62# RER limbs as they are smoother and feel like only 55#. Keep shooting whatever performs and feels  good to you. There was an old adage about hunting weights when I started "shoot the heaviest bow you're comfortable with" it's always been good for me.

[toddster]

Well, personally, when I transitioned into traditional archery, I worked up to an 80# longbow.  i shot it for a few years and was competant, shot my share of game with it.  Then one day I grabbed an 50# bow, and shot it and was like wow, I actually had to stop robin hooded two different arrows and cut feathers up.  As you remember any deer can be harvested with a 40# bow and keen broadhead.  50# bow will kill any animal on the north american continet, when place in the boiler room.  To me it is not worth taking the chance and getting hurt, I want to enjoy this as long as possible.  If you ever attend Monty Browning's seminars or talk to him, ask him about shooting heavy bows for years, he will tell you.  Incidently, not to start an arguement but Pope and Young, and Mr. Hill bow prefered 50-55# bows when they got older and hunted.  Remember, you will develop arthritis and that if nothing else will catch up.

[Don Stokes]

RLA, you made a really good point. When I was regularly matching other archers up with shafts, I used a test arrow to check draw length, with numbers marked on it. When the shooter knew I was checking with the marked arrow, the draw length was usually right with what they thought. When they relaxed and started shooting the bare shafts, it was very common to see that their real draw length was an inch or two shorter. That was when the average draw weights were normally 60# plus. I don't think that would be the case today, with the average being closer to 50.

Those extra inches make a huge difference in performance. Dan Quillian used to claim that one more inch of draw was equivalent to adding 10 pounds of draw weight.

[reddogge]

All of you exponents of keeping in shape will prevent injuries I'll let you in on a dirty little secret.  I'm 65 and have been a regular at a gym for 20 years and ran when younger. I live on some acreage which requires physical labor to maintain.  I eat right.  All of that didn't prevent the following:

Quadruple by-pass surgery (bad genes)
knee surgery
Dislocated shoulder several times
Arthritis  in shoulder and other joints
Bursitis and tendonitis in shoulders and elbow
Bone spur in elbow
And finally the real kicker..Torn left tendon to the elbow due to a tractor accident this May.  I'm slowly recovering and have moved from a 20# Little Bear to a 30# target bow to a 41# Kodiak so I'm getting there.

My point is when you age s*** happens whether you work out or not.  Come back and talk to me when you're 65, otherwise don't preach to me about heavy bows and conditioning.

[Curveman]

Originally posted by pseman:
I hear a lot of talk about "working out" and "being in shape" to prevent injuries. Most injuries related to shooting a bow are joint and ligament damage or tears. I'm sorry, but "working out" and being in shape will not prevent tearing a ligament/tendon or damaging a shoulder for the most part. Joint injuries typically happen over time due to long-term overuse. Ligament and tendon damage often occurs quickly but is not related to muscle strength.

For example, pitchers often damage there shoulders and elbows because of long term excessive force applied to those joints. NOT because they are not "in shape" and not because they don't "work out" their arms. Same thing applies to the running back that blows a knee or tears a hamstring.

Plain and simple, exercising is good and will strengthen muscles and improve cardiovascular health, no doubt. Long-term exposure of joints and ligaments to excessive amounts of force WILL eventually cause injury. If not, then you are the lucky exception, not the rule.

Good post Mark. I did exclude those shooting light bows due to injuries as well but what I'd like to see is any, solid, university based research  (evidenced not anecdotal), that shooting a heavy bow will inevitably lead to joint and shoulder problems. People have stated that they are wisely protecting their shoulders from injury down the road by shooting light bows. I have read that pro athletes are having joint problems etc. not only due to excessive frequency of the actions involved, but because they are performing movements that are actually unnatural for the body or being on the receiving end you might say of "unnatural acts" (like being crushed and twisted the wrong way by a 300lb lineman)! Most orthopedists are recommending weightlifting for seniors, for osteoporosis, for joints, etc. What are the FACTS? I've informed people of what I've read.

As for the ego: I believe it is as involved for those who think they are "more manly" if they shoot a heavier bow as it is involved for those who rationalize i.e. think themselves wiser for shooting a lightweight bow when the truth is they CAN'T shoot a heavier bow! Some won't admit either to themselves.  There is a third cohort who chose either just because that's what they like, are use to etc.

When I bought my first custom bow I went to the old Lost Nation to see Ray concerned about what I'd been reading about being "overbowed." I was fully willing and expecting to change the order to a lighter bow. I was unawares Ray had been observing me shoot. He said that my form was excellent and: "you have more than enough strength to shoot that weight and more!' Since I was relatively new and enthusiastic to hunt EVERYTHING, I went with it. Now, it is a light bow for me. Lacking any proof, I don't believe there will be joint problems down the road as a result of shooting it. I would argue that a 45# bow, feeling the same to that shooter, would be as likely to cause problems.  I don't think people are necessarily short drawing heavier bows.

I will try not to post on this subject again. I ignored my better judgment not to this AM!          

[Orion]

I've been shooting sticks for about 50 years now.  In my younger days, I shot heavier (not heavy) bows -- mostly 65# and a few 70#ers.  I'm 63 now and have dropped down to the mid-50s.  Had some tendons stiffen up once or twice, but can't say that I've ever been injured from shooting, and I've been shooting almost daily for the past 30 years.  Maybe in another 30 years it will get to me.  I'm amazed at how much we get our undies in a bundle over draw weight.  

[pseman]

"Most orthopedists are recommending weightlifting for seniors, for osteoporosis, for joints, etc. What are the FACTS? "

I can't argue with that, but would they recommend that they shoot a 70lb bow 50-60 shots per day? Absolutely not! In fact, this might be considered an "unnatural act".  Joints and muscles will certainly benefit from regular exercise, no doubt. Manys studies to prove it. But just like in any activity, excess often causes damage.

As for the study on shooting heavy bows to see if they cause injury/damage, well good luck on that one. But I'll bet if you polled the folks on this site to see how many shot heavy bows in the past and who have had shoulder injuries, there would be a definate correlation.

[George D. Stout]

Well, opinions are like rearends, right guys, so I won't give any more opinions.  What I will say, is come to my house sometime.  We will talk archery, and shoot your heavy bows and my lighter ones. I went that route many years ago, and I'm certainly not a weak little pencil-neck 8^).  But the point is I don't need those heavy weights, because I already shoot plum through whitetails.  My bow will shoot nearly 60 yards point-on with a 500 grain arrow, so you need to tell my what I would gain for hunting whitetails, or even elk for that matter.  I would also love to stand beside you and watch you shoot, and see if you really are getting the extra power from that bow, or if you are losing it to static release and short drawing.

At any rate, I wish you all well.  I know what my equipment will do, and I know how accurate and deadly I can be with it.  And, you are always welcome at the Stout household, no matter what weight you be a pullin'.

[Ben Maher]

for years i use to shoot 58" 65 to 70 pounders..they really zipped an arrow out there and clean blew threw any critters when i put the arrow in the right place ......but any extended practice was out of the question due to fatigue.
and now at 36 yrs old i notice that my arrows still zip right threw big hogs[ last week got 3 in QLD here in OZ] and thats with 50# at my draw . the older i get the more i want to just shoot my bows..whether it be deer,  large feral pigs, stumps , field courses or rabbits and with these lighter bows i can shoot all day without much fatigue and still maintain good form and have fun.
if you are going to hunt big bodied dangerous game then high poundage bows are  required, and if you just like to pull heavy poundages the more power to you.but for me, aside from buffalo and banteng there is not a species in Oz that i wouldn't tackle with my moderate poundage bows .....
and as i get older , i have remembered as to when i was younger , that there is so much more to archery than hunting [ and yes i still get the same excitement and want of antlers and tusks as anyone else] and that whilst i may limit some game opportunities by pulling fifty to mid fifty pound bows , i will hopefully open more opportunities  to fling cedar and feathers as my hair grows thinner, the joint creaking gets louder and my sun begins to set .....

cheers and good shooting

ben

[tradtusker]

i shot heavy bows from when i started at about 16 years old , regret it now.. it took me a long time to get over the bad habits i picked up from shooting that heavy a bow.

used to lift a lot of weights and play a lot of Rugby though

now i hunt with a 62lb longbow but have bows that range from 55lbs to 73lbs

i think a GOOD warm up is a must!
 when i shoot with all my friends here i am the only one that warms up before shooting

[Ben Maher]

andy...
a good warm up is a must , particularly if you come from a country whose rugby team is scared of the Wallabies
and all good Backs use longbows....'curves are for Front rowers

Cheers
ben

[Brian Krebs]

I have shot a bow that was 60 pounds at 28 inches; shooting a 31 inch arrow for over 3 decades.
  Lately I have been shooting at set targets instead of my normal roving type of practice. The result was blood blisters on blood blisters on my finger.
 If I just shoot one arrow and retrieve it and then shoot another I can do it all day. But shooting groups of 6 arrows at set targets ...my finger wears out ( shoot 2 fingers).
 I broke my bow arm shoulder in 2002 and shot a buck with my longbow taped to my foot that fall.
 I don't have shoulder problems from the shoulder injury; my only pain comes from my 58 year old finger.
 I believe if I shot 3 fingers - the 74 pounds I draw would not be an issue.

 Ask me again next year