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Author Topic: Wolves attack sheep in my bowhunting unit  (Read 1293 times)

Offline Randy Morin

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Wolves attack sheep in my bowhunting unit
« on: August 30, 2009, 01:00:00 PM »
A not-so-rare and interesting story.  I hunt Elk very close to where this occured.  Man I feel for these ranchers.  Coincidentily, there will be a hearing this week to see if Montana and Idaho Fish and Game dept's get to go ahead and issue Wolf tags as planned for this years hunts.  A coalition of animal rights groups is contesting the hunt.
   http://www.missoulian.com/news/local/article_5ff01772-938f-11de-9aca-001cc4c03286.html

Offline Dave Bulla

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Re: Wolves attack sheep in my bowhunting unit
« Reply #1 on: August 30, 2009, 01:44:00 PM »
Ya know, for a long time I didn't have a very strong opinion either way on this issue as it didn't effect me personally.  Just kinda chalked up the reintroduction of wolves to another tree hugger  stunt.  

With one exception.  From the very first I wondered about the possible motive.  My first thought when hearing about predator reintroduction has always been something like "I wonder if the anti's are just trying to take away the argument that hunters are needed to control population numbers for game animals?  I mean, if they put back the natural predators, what is the point of hunting?  It'll all be just a hunky dory Disney world where the animals will just coexist and the 'nasty wasty baddy hunter man' won't be needed any more. But even to myself, my initial gut reaction rang of "conspiracy theory" and I didn't often mention it.  

I had always heard for most of my life that one of the strongest arguments FOR hunting was population control.  There are so many examples of animals being brought back from the brink of extinction by hunters efforts that it is, in my mind, one of the great truths of America.  Deer, turkey and elk are the first examples that come to mind.  I've read Don Thomas's remarks that he felt the surest way to maintain a healthy population of wolves would be to allow hunting for them and I completely agree.  From license fees, hunting guides, travel expenses, taxidermy fees or whatever else, there is a unarguable monetary benefit.  And from harvest data collected, observations made, specimens from animals harvested and hunter surveys, biologists can get a lot of hard data for future management decisions.  Not to mention that a hunting season would help instill a fear of man that recent encounters I've read seem to indicate isn't as common as one would think.  I've read recent accounts on several other sites that have first hand stories of some pretty horrific wolf attacks.  

In fact, here is the link to a thread that has several stories and links to other reports too.

 http://shootersforum.com/showthread.htm?t=48656
Dave


I've come to believe that the keys to shooting well for me are good form, trusting the bow to do all the work, and having the confidence in the bow and myself to remain motionless and relaxed at release until the arrow hits the mark.

Offline nurayb

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Re: Wolves attack sheep in my bowhunting unit
« Reply #2 on: August 30, 2009, 02:18:00 PM »
Hopefully this judge does not mess up again after listening to a bunch of people who don't even live here!

Offline JimB

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Re: Wolves attack sheep in my bowhunting unit
« Reply #3 on: August 30, 2009, 02:22:00 PM »
At least the wolves have good timing.

Offline dragon rider

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Re: Wolves attack sheep in my bowhunting unit
« Reply #4 on: August 30, 2009, 02:38:00 PM »
Of course they attack the sheep.  You can easily imagine the pack leader saying to his clan "OK, who wants to go eat some fat, slow, stupid, but very tasty, sheep, and who wants to go see if we can find another bull elk like the one that stomped Uncle Fred into a tired puddle and then stomped the puddle dry last week?"  To a wolf, a sheep has to look like it comes with golden arches on its sides.

I think Dave is right - hunting will probably be required to maintain a health population of both wolves and their prey.  Nature tends to run in cycles - the predator population increases as the prey population does until the predator population is too large, then they mostly starve back down below healthy levels - the prey come back well beyond healthy levels - the predators start to rebound and for a brief shining moment every few years we actually have balance.  The only way to stay balanced is "outside", i.e., human management and intervention to dampen the population swings.
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Offline centaur

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Re: Wolves attack sheep in my bowhunting unit
« Reply #5 on: August 30, 2009, 02:51:00 PM »
Wolves need management, and at least Montana and Idaho have some chance of getting that done, but in Wyoming, the feds still won't let Game and Fish bring wolves to 'trophy game' status. This summer, a rancher in the Bighorns lost over 60 sheep in a day to wolves; according to the wolf huggers, wolves aren't anywhere but around Yellowstone. They will continue to decimate livestock and wildlife until they can be managed like other predator species. Hope that we will have some elk left by the time USFW decides that some wolves need killing.
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Offline Ray_G

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Re: Wolves attack sheep in my bowhunting unit
« Reply #6 on: August 30, 2009, 04:52:00 PM »
Randy, I am so sorry to hear this story and it's impact on your hunt and for the ranchers that lost a lot of sheep and the work it took to get there.  I guess we can dismiss "they only eat the weak and sickly" and "they only kill to eat" arguements. (some of us never believed that anyway   "[dntthnk]"   )

There is a very good thread over on the Hunting Legislation forum for anyone that hasn't read it.  

 http://tradgang.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=93;t=000433

Many of us that live in the Canadian Wolf introduced impact areas believe that we should have predators and in Idaho we had wolves that were indigenous in our ecosystems.  These others are unmanaged interlopers!
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Offline Bill Kissner

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Re: Wolves attack sheep in my bowhunting unit
« Reply #7 on: August 30, 2009, 09:00:00 PM »
Does everyone know Alaska has been fighting a losing battle with the wolf lovers for decades? I cannot believe there are actually hunters that think reintroduction is a good idea. I said long ago when this all started that come the day elk numbers were down and a predator numbers needed  thinned that the hunter would be the first to go. In my opinion, the only good wolf is a dead one.
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Offline Dave Bulla

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Re: Wolves attack sheep in my bowhunting unit
« Reply #8 on: August 30, 2009, 10:24:00 PM »
Ya know, this wolf reintroduction is about like the otter reintroduction here in MO.  Everyone thinks otters are so cute right?  I mean, we've all seen footage of otters just sliding and gliding down mud or snow banks into rivers in obvious play and good humor haven't we?  They are just SOOOOOooooo cute and cuddly looking and funny too!  They were native to the Ozarks but nearly wiped out years ago.  Of course reintroduction of otters would be a good thing right?

I've heard at least three different MO conservation officers say that it was one of the worst mistakes ever made by the state of Missouri.  

When first reintroduced, they were heavily protected just like the wolves.  

As numbers grew and they spread far faster than expected, complaints started to come in from land owners.  Just like the wolves.

Some people ignored the law and shot them just because, some independent minded folks did it because they prefer to handle their own troubles and because the otters were cleaning out entire ponds of fish.  Others called to complain to the Cons. Dept. and went through the motions of having a state trapper come and remove/relocate a couple.  Just like wolves.

Biologists and "experts" all said that they were just doing what comes natural.  That people were exaggerating the destruction.  They are not that destructive really.  Just like wolves.
 
As more people complained and more data was collected, the experts started to grudgingly change their stance.  Even more people called in complaints or showed to meetings in person and instead of sending out animal control, permission was given to some land owners to kill animals.  But they had to report/turn in every animal.  Each case was examined for truth and justifiable killing.  Just like wolves.

Numbers continued to increase.  Calls became a nuisance and many land owners were told to "Just shoot the d@*n things."  NOT just like wolves.....yet.

As more impact studies were conducted, it was found that a family of otters could in fact nearly wipe out the population of say a smallish farm pond.  No big deal though as far as the state or the biologists were concerned but oh my....they also found that they could have an enormous impact on the population of some very rare strains of fish that were native to certain Ozark streams.  Some, in VERY limited stretches of very small streams.  They had a situation where there was a possibility that the otters could actually wipe out some very rare species that existed in specialized micro type ecosystems.

Wolves are predators just like otters are predators.  Except wolves kill big critters like deer, elk, mountain sheep, domestic animals and pets.  Sometimes just for the fun of it.  Like an owl in a chicken house.  A few animals can and will kill far more than just what they need to eat.

Oh, but wolves don't hurt people right?  At least not healthy ones... Oh, and they only prey on the sick, weak or injured animals right?  Go read the link I posted above and find the link in it about all the newspaper clippings form the late 1800's and early 1900's about wolf attacks.  Or the New York Times article on the farmer attacked in his own front yard who at the time of the article wasn't expected to survive.  (No idea how that ended.)  Or the Canadian man who was killed and eaten.  Oh right!  That the wolf lovers say that wasn't a wolf kill... There is a wolf expert who blamed that one on bears because there was a dump nearby saying that the wolves only ate on him after the bear killed him.  No matter that the official inquiry ruled it a wolf kill.  Oh, and it sounds like there were some bystanders who said they didn't see any bears around.

As the guys says on the radio...."WAKE UP AMERICA!!"

I'm certainly not for wiping wolves out to the point of extinction but there are obviously too many of them at least in some areas.  They have shown a real tendency to spread out far more than expected.  Make them a game animal.  Let the states take advantage of the revenue that would bring in.  Let them take advantage of the data that could be collected.  Let the wolves learn that humans are to be feared.  Let just enough of them live to enhance the wilderness experience.  I would love to hunt in the wilderness and hear a couple wolves howl.  But I don't want to read about peoples livestock being wiped out, or worse, maybe somebody being killed by wolves that were forced into inhabited areas.  I don't want to see deer or elk numbers plummet to the point where sport hunting has to be halted because it's impact on top of the wolf kill would be too severe.  A little common sense will go a long way with this one.
Dave


I've come to believe that the keys to shooting well for me are good form, trusting the bow to do all the work, and having the confidence in the bow and myself to remain motionless and relaxed at release until the arrow hits the mark.

Offline joe skipp

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Re: Wolves attack sheep in my bowhunting unit
« Reply #9 on: August 30, 2009, 11:13:00 PM »
That would be like the Black Bear problem in New Jersey...closed the season 2 yrs ago, now we have numerous encounters in backyards, driveways, playgrounds...one poor guy had a large sow smack him while he was packing his trunk with food...she stole his Subway sandwhich, no lie...the guy ended up with a dislocated shoulder and many cuts and facial bruises.

The Jersey Fish and Game....nothing. Bear was doing what comes natural, searching out food. In a mans driveway, with the car trunk open. Its gonna take a young child to get badly mauled or possibly die before any action is taken. Like the wolves and otters, there needs to be some control. Just me ranting.......
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Offline Dave Bulla

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Re: Wolves attack sheep in my bowhunting unit
« Reply #10 on: August 30, 2009, 11:32:00 PM »
"One poor guy had a large sow smack him while he was packing his trunk with food...she stole his Subway sandwich, no lie...the guy ended up with a dislocated shoulder and many cuts and facial bruises. "

Now that would be funny if it weren't true....

There is another reintroduced critter I forgot about...  the pine martin in Pennsylvania.  Got family back there and I'm starting to hear stories about them too though not nearly to the point of otters and wolves.  Sounds like they might be coming on pretty strong soon though.
Dave


I've come to believe that the keys to shooting well for me are good form, trusting the bow to do all the work, and having the confidence in the bow and myself to remain motionless and relaxed at release until the arrow hits the mark.

Offline Three Arrows

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Re: Wolves attack sheep in my bowhunting unit
« Reply #11 on: August 31, 2009, 05:10:00 AM »
Round up the activists and send them out with the wolves.

Offline newtradgreenwood

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Re: Wolves attack sheep in my bowhunting unit
« Reply #12 on: August 31, 2009, 09:35:00 AM »
To add some perspective.  

I am a biologist and grew up in Pike County IL.  My Grandfather passed a decade ago.  Grandad was born, raised, educated, and lived his entire life on one farm and was very "traditional".  He remembers when the deer and turkeys were eliminated in the are in the 1930s (depression families were actually hunting for food, not sport).  He thought my Dad was lying when he saw three deer in the late 1950s when plowing a field.  Grandad was worried about the deer coming back and was mad when they (Dept. of Conservation) made it illegal to shoot them on-sight and had to have a license and limited the number that could be killed.  Corn eating vermin that spread disease to cattle.  And deer even killed some people in highway collisions.  Damn liberals, damn hunters who want to hunt them, damn tress-passing hunters, damn biologists who say the deer are just hungry and eat only acorns not corn.

Offline Dave Bulla

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Re: Wolves attack sheep in my bowhunting unit
« Reply #13 on: August 31, 2009, 06:23:00 PM »
newtradgreenwood,

Interesting point.  I know back in PA growing up in the '70s farmers constantly complained about too many deer eating their corn and soybeans and wanting to shoot them for crop damage.  Now that numbers are better under control, and there aren't does all over the place, people complain about the deer being wiped out.  Can't please everyone.

Hope I didn't offend you too much with my comments about biologists not admitting wolves or otters would be a problem.  Really should have said "experts" because not all "experts" quoted on line are biologists.  When I was finishing up high school back in the day, my goal was to go to college to become a biologist but my guidance counselor talked me out of it saying there was too much competition and not enough money in it.  Ended up in the Marines fixing planes instead.  So, basically, I'm certainly no biologist but I could probably play one on TV.... (Remember the commercials by the soap opera doctor saying something similar and tying to sell some sort of medicine?)  Never had the formal college or field training but I've always read all I could find and tried to learn on my own both from books and in the field so take my opinions with a grain of salt.  I still stand by them, but admit I may be less informed than I could be.  

From YOUR perspective, what do you think about predator reintroduction in general?  Just curious.  It'd be nice to get a more educated opinion.
Dave


I've come to believe that the keys to shooting well for me are good form, trusting the bow to do all the work, and having the confidence in the bow and myself to remain motionless and relaxed at release until the arrow hits the mark.

Offline dragon rider

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Re: Wolves attack sheep in my bowhunting unit
« Reply #14 on: August 31, 2009, 06:27:00 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Dave Bulla:
 A little common sense will go a long way with this one.
Dave,

I agree with almost all of what you wrote, and especially your concluding line.  Unfortunately, I tend to despair because I think there is little, if any, likelihood that common sense will be allowed into the discussion.  There appear to be far too many zealots on each side - sort of like the rest of American public debate at the moment. I may be delusional but I think I remember a time when reasonable men could disagree, sometime vehemently, and still treat each other with respect. This time, however, doesn't seem to be it - if it ever existed.

I fully support wolf reintroduction.  I also fully support the right of ranchers, etc. to be compensated for stock they wouldn't have lost had the reintroduction not been done.  I also firmly believe that the people who determine what killed the livestock should err as much as is even reasonably honest, on the side of the ranchers, etc.  Farming/ranching is a hell of a lot of work and generally seems to earn enough to stay just shy of complete poverty.  

From what I've read and studied, not that I claim to be an expert, wolves generally don't kill more than they can eat, but that's only true if you see it from the wolf's perspective.  

They'll kill far more than they need right at that moment, but will continue to come back to the kill, assuming they're not pressured by humans and their kill hasn't been taken by bears, to eat for several days.  They will, of course, as will most dogs, happily eat meat that has decayed far beyond anything any human would touch - to them maggots are just more protein.  But in the end, everything they kill will be eaten, if not by them, then by other animals, all the way down the chain to bacteria.

The Plains Indians did essentially the same thing - they killed far more buffalo, for example, than they needed at the time, but cured the meat and saved it so that at least most of them would not starve during the coming winter.

It's also been reported that the reintroduction has had a beneficial effect on the northern Wyoming pronghorn herd, mostly because they've controlled the coyote population that was over-killing the fawns to the point that too few of them matured and that by pushing the deer and elk so that they can't just stand at stream beds and eat all day they've been responsible for the resurgence of willows and several other plants along Yellowstone streams.

I also believe that as a matter of "rights" the wolves have as much right to the game as we do.  We control our harvest with licenses, etc. - at least for those of us who don't poach - and to me poaching does not really include someone taking a deer, elk, etc. when the other choice is that his family will go hungry - it's the guys who don't need the meat, are going after out of seasons trophies and just generally don't give a damn about anything but themselves that I consider poachers.  

Now, given that there's no way to get wolves to buy licenses, tag their kills, etc. their populations have to be controlled at least in part as a matter of giving the prey a fighting chance at maintaining healthy levels.  I also believe that hunting is probably the best way to do that, because it will control the population to a reasonable extent, and reintroduce, where it's been lost, the wolves "normal" desire to avoid human contact.  

Part of what seems to get in the way of any rational discussion is competing views of wolves - they're either nature's noblemen or the devil's dogs.  In fact, they're neither.  There is no moral component to a wolf.  Discussion of good and evil are silly.  They impute human concepts to animals that have no idea what they mean and wouldn't be interested if they did.  They kill to eat, to teach their pups how to survive and to stay strong enough to continue to reproduce.  When they can't do that anymore, they die - and not in some peaceful rest home for old retired wolves, they die either slowly and painfully of disease and starvation or of injuries when, for example, they get too slow to get out of the way of the elk hoof or whatever defense mechanism their prey has.  Occasionally they get lucky are killed quickly.  And, of course, the same is true of their prey.  

Someone I read in Grays Sporting Journal once pointed out that compared to what wild animals face from nature and each other, even the best of us hunters is a minor nuisance in their lives.

Part of what we really need in this discussion is a realization that the Disney movies have made too many people think that animals are humans in furry suits.  

I think we need two things.  First, we need to get the imputed to animals morality out of the discussion and make management decisions based on what creates a reasonable balance between human needs and animal needs.  Second, we need to get past the notion that because we can, we have the right to wipe out a whole species.  We can't create them so in my opinion we don't have the right to eliminate them.

Thanks for listening/reading.
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Offline newtradgreenwood

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Re: Wolves attack sheep in my bowhunting unit
« Reply #15 on: September 01, 2009, 10:36:00 AM »
Dave,

No offense taken.  And likewise, I mean no dis-respect to anyone.  Re-introducing any predator or any animal or plant for that matter is biologically complex, contoversial, and political.  There are no 100% correct or 100% wrong opinoins.  I respect that you were in the Marines & helped defend our country.  TradGang PowWow IMO is better than most other forums in being respectful even if we do not agree.  Discussion is good. Sometimes we find out we really do not disagree.  Sometimes we are enlightened & change our views a bit.    

I work in the environmental consulting field.  Help highway departments, military and private companies build build roads, ranges, ethanol plants, wind farms, etc.  Write reports and get permits for wetlands, endangered species, water quality, and other natural and cultural resources.  Have worked in more than 20 states in the mid-west, great plains, and southeast.  Am in the middle of clients who just want to build no matter what & build now & want to get the environmental "stuff" out of the way, environmentalist that just want to stop the project no matter what, and multiple state and federal regulatory agencies with different agendas. Laugh about it, but it is mostly true...if everyone is a little PO'd, but says OK let's do the project I did a perfect job.

My personnel opinoin is that predator re-introduction is OK & that hunting of sustainable populations of any animal including predators is also OK.  Believe that hunting of predators helps "educate" them that humans are dangerous and that they, their houses and livestock should be avoided.  Wolves and other predators are part of our heritage the same as the Liberty bell or great-Grandfather's picture on the wall, or five generations of military service.  Wolves are one of God's wonderful creatures the same as deer.  Wolves also sometimes eat livestock and deer eat crops and cause car accidents.  There are trade-offs, kinda like freedom.  Freedom is complex & isn't free.  Freedom needs soldiers and lawyers.  Freedom sometimes lets idiots have a voice and sometimes lets crimminals get away.  But IMO freedom is worth brave men's (& women's) blood & (gulp) even having lawyers around.    

IMO & as a general statement I think wolves and other predators are over-blamed for livestock kills.  Not saying it does not happen.  Feral dogs, abandoned pet wolves, and wild wolves visiting already dead animals are often reported as wolf "kills".  Sometimes it is one or two "bad apple" wolves & not the whole pack.    

From a biological perspective.  Wolves and predator more often than not go for the weak and sick.  That lyme disease carrying tick infested deer that wolves eat in August won't infect you or me.  That contagious blue-tongue infected deer is taken down before it can infect the rest of the deer population and cause a huge population crash.  

Also, contrary to popular belief, predator populations are controlled by prey populations - not the other way around. You can have deer with no wolves.  But, if you have no prey species you have no predators.  Habitat carrying capacity is what determines population levels.  If wolves and other predators killed everything there would have been no deer, elk, bison, pronghorns, etc. 100,000s of years before recorded history.  There are fewer game species today due to human activities.  

IMO anti-hunters can take a hike.  Come to the table when you have done as much for conservation as hunters.  Use your time to raise money & buy some land for preservation, plant some trees, go be a part of nature like hunters.

Take care,

Tom

Offline JimB

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Re: Wolves attack sheep in my bowhunting unit
« Reply #16 on: September 01, 2009, 01:00:00 PM »
I live an hours drive from where that incident took place.

I went to our local hardware store yesterday,as he is a hunting license agent and it was the last day to get a mountain lion liense.I noticed wolf regulations on the counter.I don't know when they came out but wolf licenses are available now so I got one of those too-$19.

If the hunt goes through,they plan on taking 75 wolves statewide and most areas would start Oct 25th which coincides with rifle season.A few areas start Sept 15th.

It will be interesting.

Offline JimB

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Re: Wolves attack sheep in my bowhunting unit
« Reply #17 on: September 01, 2009, 02:13:00 PM »
Got this one on a trail camera a couple years ago.First week of August.The funny thing is,50 minutes later,a coyote marched up the same trail,going the direction the wolf went.It's nose must have been stuffed up.

Offline dragon rider

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Re: Wolves attack sheep in my bowhunting unit
« Reply #18 on: September 01, 2009, 03:50:00 PM »
newtradgreenwood

Yours is an outstanding addition to this discussion - and I say that having been a lawyer for 37 years (after spending '69 and '70 in the Army), until I retired this spring.

For the record, I'm proud of both things, but fortunately have enough of a sense of humor to be highly amused by your "(gulp) lawyers" comment.  Really funny.

Thanks.
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Offline newtradgreenwood

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Re: Wolves attack sheep in my bowhunting unit
« Reply #19 on: September 01, 2009, 04:14:00 PM »
dragon rider,

Thanks for the compliment.  Glad you took the lawyer joke as a joke.  Was serious when I said we need soldiers and lawyers to keep our freedoms.

Like my lawyer who this time last year helped me against a school district when I transfered my daughters out of their district to another.  Lawyer helped her maintain her Varsity basketball elgibility.  She made first team all conference & got some scholarship money for college.

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