What about the American Indians?

[barebow]

In the April/May issue of TBM in the Primitive Bowhunter section, the article called "The Unbearable Lightness of Arrows", written by Dave Sigurslid, mentions that shooting an arrow with 14.83 pound-feet per second momentum is the minimum amount needed to break the nearside ribs of a buffalo. That makes me curious about approximate arrow weight and bow poundage typically used by the American Indians who hunted buffalo.  Does anyone know?

Also, if anyone has any other information about American Indian hunting methods such ground stalking techniques, drives, calling, tracking etc., it would be interesting to hear about it.

[the Ferret]

Indians shot bows form 40 to 90 pounds although the heavyweights were pretty rare..mostly beween 40 and 45# @ 24". Arrows of that size and materials used would weigh between 350 and 500 grains.

I don't think they worried about breaking buffalo rib bones, they just shot them between the ribs  

[ChuckC]

Earlier  peoples, as little as 150 years ago, hunted by different rules and I believe, had different shots than we take.  Example, when the plains indians developed horse skills, their shots were probably almost point blank.  Another strategy that was used a lot by man, especially those without horse culture, was to drive the animals into a surround or off a cliff.  Doesn't take much of a cliff for an animal that size to break a leg or two, making them much easier to approach for that finishing shot.

I am guessing shots were very short.
ChuckC

[Tree man]

Differt buffler.

Sigurslid  (and Ashby) are refering to Water Buffalo ribs(and to a lesser extent Cape Buffalo since Ashby did a little testing on those). The American Bison is more lightly boned and has more space between the ribs. Reportedly the prefered shot of the Plains Amerindian was from behind the short-ribs quartering forward to rupture the diaphrahm and travel on into the lungs.

That light and fast arrows, heavy and slow arrows, heavy and fast arrows and light and slow arrows all work is undeniable. I am convinced that heavy is advantageous (even if slow) and Ashby's research tends to confirm that. Ultimately, lethality can never be reduced to formulae.

[Doug Campbell]

Oh boy, here we go.

After being around bison for several years and shooting several with arrows I tend to believe that the American Indain was mostly concerned with just getting an arrow into the bison somewhere. Typically a wounded bison will "hole" up pretty quick and IMO the Indain being on a different time schedule than us and not constrained by our "code of ethics" was just concerned with the end result. If it took a few hours to secure that pile of meat so be it. In a similiar survival situation I'd not be nearly as concerned with a quick clean kill as getting something to eat.  

As far as the point blank shooting from horse back I'm sceptical of that also. Bison are incredibly agile and fast. Your typical horse is going to have a very hard time running down an adult bison in the wide open spaces. We've used horses a few times to move or "herd" our bison and unless you want a complete runaway it can only be done from a respectable distance. Ussually after a few hours your horse is completely done in and the bison are just starting to enjoy the "game". I'm not saying it didn't happen but IMO just not on a regular basis.

I think Mickey is mostly right, on a decent sized bull the rib cage wall may be 4" thick. Lots of meat and hide to go thru with primitive equipment. Hard as it is to believe of the probably 30+ arrows we've sent into ribcages of bison I've only seen one center a rib. That was a stone point that broke at the haft on impact.

It aint purdyand I'm certianly not advocating it but think about it... most animals can recover from a marginal chest wound but what are the survival rates from even a poorly placed sharp stick thru the guts.

[oneshot1]

I would agree with Doug on this, American Indian's didn't worry about " one shot, one kill ", many historical accounts state that Abo's would have 2-3-4 arrows in the air at the same time. Ventalate a critter's body enough, and track it down. Buff drops/falls over a cliff or into a ravine/wash-out were used to great effect, most have Buff on the bottom of the pile that couldn't be reached because of the number of animals on top of them. Group hunting was the main method of making meat. And remember that the Bow has only been around here in North America for 1200-600 years, depending on location. Spear's were used for over 10,000 years in N.A. and the Abo's did just fine.

[Doug Campbell]

Just imagine being of the Clovis people and slipping up on a wooly mammoth with a sharp rock tied on a stick        Yep I'd go for the less threatening end of the critter!

[gregg dudley]

A great mammoth ambush site was discovered near Ocala, Florida on the Silver River.  The skeletal remains were from a juvenile.  Artifacts from this site are on display at The Silver River Museum.  Neat stuff.

From what I have read, most of the theories here are correct.  Somewhere I have seen a breakdown on average bow length and weigh of various native people.  I remember thinking how light they were.  The bows were also shot and the cast was measured.  I will have to dig for that table.

I bet those hungry camp dogs came in handy on blood trails.

[Rick Perry]

Indians killed to survive . They were not hunting for "sport" When your very survival is dependant on what you kill , ethics means nothing.

 Betcha everyone one of us would gladly "cheat" to kill something if we were stranded in a wilderness area and hungry !!!!!  

[JEFF B]

how true bro thats for sure  

[Brian Krebs]

Heck I live off a small disability check; and meat is dependant on my shooting and hunting abilities;  that does not drive me away from ethics.
 I think that time is the key here. In the winter the deer and elk slow down and are easier to hunt; more predictable; and you can see well enough to shoot at night with a full moon- especially against a snowy background.
 They didn't have to drive home after the hunt; they could pitch a tent right in the middle of critter country; and shoot whatever came close enough.
 The sheepeater indians have rock blinds that still exist; and when they fooled a bighorn; they did it at really close range.
  Time for us is the set season we are allowed to hunt in- for them it was opprotunity.
  I have shot deer with an obsidian head; and it was a horrible wound that killed the deer.
  I have read the war records of an army doctor; where one guy was shot 18 times in the chest with arrows in one battle- and survived.
 Nobody survived a gut hit.
I have always believed that the indians were just like us- they would do what they had to.
  I think their bows being light and arrows short is probably best explained by a bowyer who makes bows duplicating them.
  If I shot an elephant; I would shoot for a liver shot; an angling forward shot; I bet a lot of bison bit the dust that way.
  But figure if they got into a herd; and got a quiver full of shots; they had work to do on the ones that dropped that made up for the time needed for the others to drop.
 You can see a dead bison a long ways away; and I just bet many indian kids tried their best to be the first to spot one.
  Ishi liked close shots.
So....do I  

     

[barebow]

As usual, there’s lot’s of interesting feedback here at Tradgang. I wonder what the Indians might have done for scent control when stalking deer and elk. I suppose they may have smeared animal parts or dirt on themselves to cover their scent. I often thought about Indians hunting at night when there was a full moon, especially in the Winter. I’ve never had to hunt because of my life having to depend on it, but I sure admire the abilities of those who did.

[**DONOTDELETE**]

You smell like what you eat...Also the Natives would wash in the water & dry themselves with dirt, natureal cover scent and they played the wind.

[oneshot1]

Great thread...Alot of American Indian cultures made use of the sweat-lodge before the hunt,they didn't eat for days before-hand, and also rubbed their bodies with sage,other herb's,and dirt. They also used skin's to cover them selves for "Camo", a deer head and thick brush, they would pop-up and down and draw the deer closer. And wolf skin's to crawl up close to a Buff herd. Women and childeren used throwing-stick's for small game, traps for bird's, fish, etc. Time...it's not what it used to mean, when your very life is dependant on downing game, any and all methods were used, driving, poison, hunting at night, hook's to snag in thick brush, pit-traps... beaver were killed not with traps, but by tearing into a lodge and clubbing the critter's...The Abo's knew the habits of all game animals and used that knowledge to their advantage. Buck's, Bulls, were not the favored animal to kill, Fat is the hardest thing to get in the wild(and the most needed for it nutrition) and they would take females over males anyday... Poor bull, Fat cow

[SCATTERSHOT]

FYI, there is an excellent book about the weapons of American Indians. It's called American Indian Archery, by Reginald and Gladys Laubin. Great info there if you can find a copy.

[barebow]

I found where the book American Indian Archery, by Laubin, Reginald; Lanbin, Gladys can be found for $14.00 at this link:
 http://www.ecampus.com/bk_detail.asp?isbn=0806123877

Thanks again everybody for all the interesting comments.

[Billy]

Good thread. That book is a great read!
He covers west to east and long to short.
I found a copy in the local library.
I'm wondering about the 'string' material the Amerindians used and how quiet they were?

[barebow]

Billy, I believe I heard somewhere that the Indians made their strings from sinew.

On another thought, I wonder if any tradgangers ever tried to re-live the experience of our ancient brothers-of-the bow by trying to shoot a buffalo while chasing them on horseback. Now that would be intense.

[jrbows]

Hey guys don't forget the amazing tracking abilities a"heard him pile up" shot although convenient wasn't needed.Also have seen different heads that were described to me as being "GUT BUSTERS" to open the stomach and track the animal that way.

[**DONOTDELETE**]

it seams like they had to do what needed to be done to feed the family. if that meant a gut shot, then they would have to take it.