Sharpening help please

[Rangeball]

I ordered some Outback supreme single bevel heads late last year on an **** closeout.  I used a nicholson curved tooth file (not sure what they're called, but the good one    ) to take the bevel down to 25* using medium pressure.  Once set, I'm getting a burr along the flat side like I'm supposed to, but when I lay the flat side flat on the file to remove it, it doesn't remove it, just straightens it out leaving a very sharp flimsy edge.  When I push harder on the flat side to remove it, the edge isn't nearly as sharp.

I've worked from the file to 600 grit then 1200 grit diamond stone, then finished on cardboard and smooth leather.  Head won't shave hair nor easily cut a stretched rubber band, yet grabs my nail easily.  I can't see them, but can feel tiny serrations on the edge.

What am I doing wrong here?

Thanks  

[Bowmania]

If you could get beveled edges as sharp as doubled beveled, surgeons would be cutting on you with them.  Think about it, I think the only way you can get single as sharp as double is my increasing the angle from 20 plus-ish to near 40ish.  Thereby creating a sharp, but very weak edge.  

Somebody on the other site once said they'd put their singles up against my doubles.  That's exactly true, but I can put a butter knife up against their single.  Doesn't mean I'm going to win.  I sharpened my STOS with a KME, so I think I'm going to win after reading threads about KME.

Time for a constructive answer.  AK Bowhunter supply has a single bevel sharpener.  I have not tried it.

[Rangeball]

I have the ABS single bevel, but the outbacks were so hard it was taking forever to change the bevel, so I went to the file.  I haven't tried working them over with the ABS now that it's changed, can't hurt.

I know people are reporting getting their SBs razor sharp, so think it can be done.  Hopefully...

[Jeremy]

The smaller the included angle, the sharper you can get a head.  Single bevel heads generally have a total included angle of 25*, your typical dbl bevel has a total included angle of 50*.  It's edge is more blunt, but is less likely the edge is to be damaged in use.  It can be honed and polished to the same degree, but the edge geometry is what it is.  If you create a dbl bevel head with total included angle of 25* it can have just as "sharp" of an edge as a single bevel.

The finest sushi knives are single bevel; the shallow angle coupled with the single bevel's tendency to pull into the flesh let you cut extremely thin slices of delicate fish.

Anyway, be careful that you're not oversharpening.  It's very easy to round over any edge on cardboard and leather.  The single bevel has less mass behind the edge and may be more prone to rounding it over.

[[email protected]]

Rangeball,

Sounds like you still have the burr attached...is that possible?

Look at the edge in natural sunlight with a magnifying glass, you will have to move the BH to let the light play on the edge to see what you really have.

Jeremy is certainly right about about rounding off an edge when stropping.  Any stropping should only be done on a very firm surface that will not "dent".

Bob

[Rangeball]

Thanks Jeremy.  

Bob, yes the burr is still there.  When it's produced, I turn the head over and lightly pull the flat side flat on the file to remove it, as is recommended in this tutorial I found-

 http://www.tradgang.com/pdf-files/grizzly.pdf

but this doesn't remove it, it only straightens it out and it's easily seen and very flimsy.

I'm wondering if I'm using too much pressure with the file that is leaving me with a rougher edge which is still holding onto the burr?

[Kingwouldbe]

Captain Augustus "Gus" McCrae said to: Pea Eye, your way over your head.

You can not only get a single bevel as sharp as a double bevel, you can get it sharper, do to the 20 degree angle.

The first reason doctors don't use a single bevel for surgery is it will NOT CUT IN A STRAIGHT LINE, not because it wont get sharp.

A 40 degree angle is BLUNTER than a 20 degree,
if you had a double bevel at 20 degrees ( 20+20 = 40 degrees ) it is blunter than a single 20 degrees.

Rangeball, more than likely you not getting the flat side flat, there is a bur at the end and the tip.
 

Then just strop off the wire edge and if it needs it, light stokes on a fine stone to polish it.

[Rangeball]

Thanks King.  I did nothing to the flat side to begin with, just hoped it would be flat.  Perhaps I need to go over it a bit to make sure it is, then try again?

Just checked it out.  Don't appear to have a lip, and ran it over the file to make sure it was flat.  This exposed the burr again, and no amount of dragging it flat on the flat side removes the burr.  I did strop it, but even that doesn't seem to want to remove the burr very well.

[Kingwouldbe]

Rangeball, if stropping will not remove the bur, it's because it's to thick.

Work the bevel side to move the bur to the flat side, even if you have to increase the angle a little.

The big sin with the Grizzly's is not getting the bevel all the way to the flat side.

[Kingwouldbe]

99% of the work is on the bevel side, light work on the flat side.

[Rangeball]

Thanks, will do.

Out of curiosity, how wide should the burr be?

And just for clarification, these are the outback supremes, not the grizzlies, but I'm sure they're just as hard  

[Kingwouldbe]

As Rodana-rosana said: never mind.

Sorry bro... my mistake, I'm not familiar with them.

The principles should be the same.

[Sharpster]

Originally posted by Bowmania:
If you could get beveled edges as sharp as doubled beveled, surgeons would be cutting on you with them.  Think about it, I think the only way you can get single as sharp as double is my increasing the angle from 20 plus-ish to near 40ish.  Thereby creating a sharp, but very weak edge.  

Somebody on the other site once said they'd put their singles up against my doubles.  That's exactly true, but I can put a butter knife up against their single.  Doesn't mean I'm going to win.  I sharpened my STOS with a KME, so I think I'm going to win after reading threads about KME.

Bowmania, Thanks very much for the kind words about the KME but I'll take your bet and you'll loose.    Right after I took the picture, I made 6 deep cuts with the head into a solid block of aluminum and then shaved my arm with it. Straight razor sharp and durable too.

 

Rangeball,

Lots, of good advice above but I have a pretty fool-proof technique. After you've developed the burr, strop the bevel side of the blade and raise your angle to around 45 degrees or higher as you draw the head backward. This will "fold" the burr completely over to the unbeveled side.

Then on a fine grit stone like a hard Arkansas use "into the edge" strokes on the unbeveled side to shear the burr off cleanly. This prevents the possibility of chasing the burr back/forth from beveled to unbeveled sides of the blade which gets old quick! Use only the minimum number of passes necessary and check the sharpness every couple of passes. When the burr is gone, the head should shave easily. Then strop as usual and you should be plowing hair. Let us know how you make out.

Ron

[Don Stokes]

King, I believe that was Rosanne Rosannadanna.    

But never mind!

[Kingwouldbe]

Don, That's what I said,    :p   lol ok, Never mind.

Ron, how many hair's you have left, I'm follicle'y challenged, so, I wont be whittling any hair.

[Sharpster]

Hey Dave,

I still got a pretty good crop growin on my noggin but... I gotta use Rogaine on my arms now!  

Ron

[Rangeball]

Rangeball,

Lots, of good advice above but I have a pretty fool-proof technique. After you've developed the burr, strop the bevel side of the blade and raise your angle to around 45 degrees or higher as you draw the head backward. This will "fold" the burr completely over to the unbeveled side.

Then on a fine grit stone like a hard Arkansas use "into the edge" strokes on the unbeveled side to shear the burr off cleanly. This prevents the possibility of chasing the burr back/forth from beveled to unbeveled sides of the blade which gets old quick! Use only the minimum number of passes necessary and check the sharpness every couple of passes. When the burr is gone, the head should shave easily. Then strop as usual and you should be plowing hair. Let us know how you make out.

Ron

Ron, yes, chasing describes exactly how it feels  

I'll give your method a shot asap.

Thanks!

Mike

[Rangeball]

Ron, what do you mean by-

"Then on a fine grit stone like a hard Arkansas use "into the edge" strokes on the un-beveled side to shear the burr off cleanly."

Is this pushing the edge forward on the stone with the un-beveled flat side down flat on the stone?

[Sharpster]

Nope, if I'm free-handing, I'll lay the head on the stone with both the ferrule and blade touching. (bevel side up). Then move the head sidways as though you were trying to plane a thin slice off the stone. It's not perfectly flat on the stone because the ferrule is acting as your angle guide. Make several light strokes moving the head straight across the stone with no lengthwise movement. Kinda tough to put into words. If I didn't explain it well enough give me a call.

Ron
800 561-4339

[newtradgreenwood]

Sharpster,

I have a set of Norton waterstones and a leather strop.  Waterstones include 220, 1000, 4000, and 8000.  

Based on the above thread are you indicating that I should use the leather strop (charged with jewler's rogue) in between the 4000 and 8000 grit instead of after the 8000 grit ?