Tapered arrows? I'm just full of questions today

[Tree man]

Mickey, My past understanding of breasted seems opposite of Bob's-To whit --- That the fat section is somewhat forward of center but I agree/have always understood that breasted are tapered more than just at the rear 7-10 inches-Your linked  web site is just wrong on this one.

[hawksnest]

Originally posted by JBiorn:
WOW!! So, who wants to build me some breasted arrows?

Go here, I use & like their Sitka Spruce tapered, breasted, or parallel shafts. They are super people to deal with too.  Bill G.

 http://www.hildebrandarrowshafts.com/

[the Ferret]

I have since found 2 sources that back up Bob scource and an additional source that backs up the source I quoted.

Treemans definition is yet another description differing from all the ones I've read so far.

Man definitons on this are all over the place.

I see Hawknests source tapers both directions on the breasted arrows as well with a 12" nock taper and a 10" point taper which would put the fat part of the shaft well in front of the strike plate

"BREASTED 11/32 (barrel) tapered to 9/32” on the nock end and 5/16 on the point end. The nock taper is a little longer (12") than the point taper (10")

confusing eh?

[Forester]

I’ll throw another stick on the fire but I’ll do it timidly, as I am not an authority on arrows nor archery history.  I have read and heard more along the lines of Bob’s definitions, which seem to have an earlier origin, than I have seen Mickey’s original sources. But I have heard them both and as Mickey said “definitions on this are all over the place.”  To that end I will add another printed version that I have on my shelf, Mickey and Bob have probably seen this one as well.

Adolph Shane wrote, in 1936, “Arrow shafts may be (1) cylindrical, in which the shaft is of the same diameter throughout its length; (2) barreled, in which it is of somewhat larger diameter at the middle than at the ends; (3) chested, in which it tapers from the nock end to the pile end; and (4) bobtailed, in which it tapers from the pile end to the knock end.”
“Archery Tackle, How To Make & How To Use It” by Adolph Shane, 1936.  Copyrighted and republished in 1990 by Bois d’Arc Press.

How’s that for stirring the pot?  With all due respect to Mickey and Bob for your knowledge, experience, and genuine interest in finding the “truth” of course.

All of us build upon what has been passed down from before our tenure.  Sometimes we change it along the way.  Mickey, maybe after all of your homework you will end up writing some on the origins and evolution of terms over time?  Sorry, did I just make your project bigger?

[Forester]

...and Roberts quoting Ascham on forms of an arrow....
  http://www.archerylibrary.com/books/english_bowman/html/156.htm


and if that link isn't good enough then buy your own copy for $600.
 http://www.biblio.com/books/53914353.html

[Tree man]

Just to clarify what I meant(Probably hopeless-haha) What Hildebrand is calling a breasted shaft is what I have always refered to as breasted also. However I have read the quote from Elmer that Bob referenced and recognized that it is different than my idea of the "proper definition", Elmer is  an historic authority and thus Bob is right  even though the other definition that I embraced has also been used  by others. It gets pretty  confusing but many  sources at least agree that breasted means more than simply tapered at the nock end only.

[dino]

My dad used to buy what was called a "double breasted shaft" from some company in Oregon back in the 70s by the thousands that was tapered from 23/64 to 5/16 at the nock and shorter 23/64 to 11/32 at the point.  The definitions are confusing no doubt.  But the fact is definitions of words and terms and language itself evolves over time.  The current definition of the word "gay" versus the 19th century definition is a striking example.  Mickey, your chapter might not only sort out the historical definitions, but what is the currently accepted definition of these terms.  Just my 2 cents, but this is a very interesting discussion.  Can't wait to read TBB4 when it come out. dino

[the Ferret]

Dang Forrester I forgot how hard it was to read old English with S's that appear similar to be F's and fo forth ha ha

(3) chested, in which it tapers from the nock end to the pile end;

or in other words the opposite of bob tailed..yes that is yet another definition I had not heard of

BTW I have heard of guys making and using cane arrows with the butt end of the shaft as the nock end and tapering to the tip as in the description above.

 but all this research is fun No?

Yes I too believe definitions and IDEAS about what will work change.(the reason for TBB's in the first place and particularly the new TBB4 which will cover what has been learned ..or maybe re-learned for those that believe nothing new has been discovered about archery in the last 15 years) I have read in several references including Aschams that certain tapers on arrows will make the arrow fly left or right when from modern experience is pure hogwash

Dino I have heard of "double breasted" but again have found no historical reference to them yet.What you are describing is what Ascram would describe simply as a chested or breasted arrow.

Here's a fun thought running through my head...Ascham prints his book with its various definitions. Is it possible a definition he printed was in error? and I wonder if anyone disageed with any point or definition he made and emailed him (wrote him a letter)and called him on it?  ha ha ha ha

Thanks all for you input fellows, I am enjoying this immensly, even if it is confusing me and adding to the work load ha ha

[DarkeGreen]

As far as I'm concerned this thread was not hijacked because all responses are in an attempt to answer the question at hand. We should all be so lucky as to have our threads "hijacked" in this manner. Pretty good stuff.

[JBiorn]

I agree totally DarkeGreen----This has been very educational.

 And thank you Bill for the link to Hildebrand!

 I think I'll go build some popcorn and watch this thread a while.

 Jeff

[the Ferret]

LOL well, like in most things ...bow building, arrow making, knife making...well ANY kind of building or making really, I have never professed, and will never profess, to being any kind of expert or authority..I am simply a student, studying and absorbing information gathered by those who have gone before me.I love this stuff and have for 50 years so anything about it's history fascinates me and entertains me. I am a huge collector and collect bows, arrows, arrowheads, indian artifacts, leather goods, books and periodicals.

As I've said many times "There is always someone who knows more than you, and always someone who knows less than you... so you can always learn, and you can always teach".

[**DONOTDELETE**]

So, how do you deal with the taper when fletching? I fletch with a Jo-Jann jig. Is it going to cause a problem with feather contacting the shaft evenly?

[Naphtali]

Have I misinterpreted your query? I think information you seek is found in the following Acrobat downloads of Ashby's experiments on this web site.

2004 Update 2

2005 Update 2 (pertains to "extreme" FOC arrows, a facet of, but not explicitly about, shaft shape)

Hope this helps.

[aromakr]

Its interesting that there are so many different discriptions of the same shaft. I will again have to quote Ascham, as I believe he is the person that coined the term "Chested" arrow, chested was later changed to breasted. Having read Elmer's many books on Archery, I know how much of a stickler he was on the discription's of archery terms and am sure his research was quite thorough.
Bob

[aromakr]

Mickey:
I did a little more research on my end. I have three arrows in my collection made by F.H. Ayres and Joseph Feltham. Both of these were professional fletchers in England. Feltham from 1861-1889 and Ayres from 1889 to early 1900's. All of these arrows are what I call breasted. One arrow is 28 5/8" BOP with a nock end taper of 8" and Point taper of 14". One is 27 3/4" BOP with 8 1/2" taper on nock end and 14" on the point. both of those are Ayres. The Feltham is 28" BOP and 7 3/4" taper on nock end and 14 1/4"" on the Point.
Hope this helps.
Bob

[the Ferret]

Sounds like you have a historic and great arrow collection Bob. I'm jealous. All my stuff is historic US with the oldest going in to the mid 1800's, but those are native american and are shoot shafts. I have lots from the 1930's on up.
I have some flight arrows I need ot measure to see where the tapers lie at. Now these taper front and back but I don't remember whether it is even or different at each end.

[Al Kidner]

this is a good thread I'll have to come back to it later.

[Cody Cantrell]

Mickey,
 I love your quote at the top of this page, thats good stuff.  This is also a good discussion keep it coming.

Cody

[dino]

Bob,
Reading through "Archery: Its Theory and Practice" by Horace Ford I see that he defines a chested arrow as taper from nock to pile where the pile is the smallest. When did "chested" become "breasted" and when did breasted begin to have two tapers (nock and point)?  It seems from the books that I have "chested" has only one continuous taper not a double taper.  dino

[aromakr]

Dino:
I don't know when the term was changed, but Ascham talks about chested arrows being tapered at both ends and thickest in the chest in his book "Toxophilus" written in 1545. When I look in "Target Archery's" Glossary under Chest, chested arrow. It says, See breast, breasted arrow
When you look under "Breast" it says "The portion of the arrow, about a fistmele from the nock" Under "Breasted arrow" it says "An arrow thickest at the breast"
 On page 280 "Elmer" says "Continuing our interrupted lesson in nomenclature: A cylindrical or parallel shaft is the kind just described, even though the shaftmond be tapered. A breasted or chested shaft is thickest at the breast and tapered both ways. A barrelled shaft is thickest in the middle; differing from the breasted type in having the swellling farther forward and less curtailed in length.
On page 282 he states,"Before the time of Horace Ford probably a majority of English arrrows were barrelled. So were those of the United Bowmen of a century ago that were copied after the English. I have both English and United Bowmen arrows of that period that taper down to 3/16" at the pile. Due to the complere misunderstanding of the action of an arrow which he displays in his book-acriticism justified by high-speed moving pictures-Ford greatly overestimated the diviation effect of all tapered arrows and advocated only the cylindrical."

Elmer goes on to quote a passage from "Arab Archery". The preference which the vast experience of the East awards to the barrelled arrow should not be overlooked by American Fletchers. The four kinds described are obviously the barrelled, breasted, cylindrical and bobtail. "The broad-breasted arrow is of two kinds. One has the first third of the arrow thin, the second third thick and the final third terminating with the nock thin like the first. This kind is used by the Egyptians and by many in the East and is by far the best kind of arrow. The second kind of thick-breasted arrow has the first half of the shaft thin and the other half thick up to the plaace of the feathers, where it becomes thin again. The arrow of even thickness is pared uniformly, being of the same size from its head to the place of the feathers, where it becomes thin. In this connection we might say that all archers are agreed that the place of the feathers should be thin in all kinds of arrows"

I've checked my copy of "Archery the technical side" by Klopsteg, Nagler & Hickman and find nothing on shaft shape. Does anyone have a copy of "Arab Archery"?
Bob