"How do we know, Dad?"

[John Scifres]

Hunting with the boy.  He takes and apparently misses a shot at a deer.  While following up, just to make sure, James asks:

   

"How do we  know deer aren't intelligent, Dad?"  

I think he was really asking how we know they aren't sentient, if he knew that word.  

What's your answer?  I'll give you mine in a bit.  Here's a hint though, I find it difficult to give a satisfactory one.

James is 12 years old and has been helping me butcher deer for years and been involved with 2 kills.

[nightowl1]

Based on the quote on the bottom of your page I would say this...

Deer ARE intelligent. But just like everything else God has given a purpose. He created us for a purpose and he did the same for deer, fish and other animals. Plants and animals were put here for us to enjoy and survive off of. We have the responsibility to, just like all the gifts God gives, care for and show no disrespect to those gifts though. By taking the deer and using his body for nourishment and other things we help them fulfill their purpose in life and they ours.

[NorthernCaliforniaHunter]

I do indeed believe thay are sentient AND have a purpose. Yes they are here in part as food for us, and yes we have a duty to the Creator to participate in creation and the cycles of life. It is also important for me to realize that the creatures I hunt are to some degree aware, and that with reverence and prayerful gratitude not only to God but to THEM, I can help these creatures pass on with less fear and hopefully even at peace.

[fireball31]

I do not believe deer are "sentient" I beleive they work purely on instinct.  To me "sentient" means the ability to tell right from wrong, the ability to feel sadness, or regret.  I do not believe that animals possess any of these traits.  That being said ,they still deserve respect and the best attempt at a clean kill free of undue suffering.

[TheFatboy]

Intelligence is relative. Even the most intelligent creatures, will only just do as they're supposed to. Feed and mate.

[ishoot4thrills]

Originally posted by fireball31:
I do not believe deer are "sentient" I beleive they work purely on instinct.  To me "sentient" means the ability to tell right from wrong, the ability to feel sadness, or regret.  I do not believe that animals possess any of these traits.  That being said ,they still deserve respect and the best attempt at a clean kill free of undue suffering.

I agree, but only to a certain extent. I believe that animals which are more highly developed than others(the primates and a few others) can sense sadness, like maybe from the loss of an offspring.

[wollelybugger]

All the dumb animals are extinct, deer are not stupid. I know if they are not hunted some would starve and I don't think that would be a good way to die.

[fireball31]

"I believe that animals which are more highly developed than others(the primates and a few others) can sense sadness, like maybe from the loss of an offspring."


I agree completely ishootforthrills, and I actually thought about making that distinction.

[Killdeer]

These are the questions that roll around in my empty noggin once the chores are done and there is quiet time for pondering. I am intrigued by the question, as I was at a thread that was evidently pulled about the different ways that we regard pets and game animals.

I am heartened by the answers that I see here, and impressed at the difference in attitude between this forum and the hunting shows in popular culture. Would you ever see this addressed on a Buckmasters episode?      

[LC]

Man good thread, one I think about alot. Who decides what intellegence is? What is a good IQ test. If someone scores high on a IQ test how long would he or she last if dropped in the jungles of a tropical rain forest? The folks there seem to do real good but bet they wouldn't last long in down town NY!

[Wannabe1]

Well said Killdeer! My hats off to you.      

[shakey slim]

my job is to kill(predator)eat
deers job is to get fat and avoid me(pray)
neither one of us have much more to offer in way of emotion.
 this opinion is my own

[Shaun]

sen⋅tient
  /ˈsɛnʃənt/ Show Spelled Pronunciation [sen-shuhnt] Show IPA

–adjective
1.    having the power of perception by the senses; conscious.
2.    characterized by sensation and consciousness.
–noun
3.    a person or thing that is sentient.
4.    Archaic. the conscious mind.

I would say that deer posses  "the power of perception by the senses" and have "sensations" but I do not believe they are "conscious" of these things or have "the conscious mind".

con⋅scious
  /ˈkɒnʃəs/ Show Spelled Pronunciation [kon-shuhs] Show IPA

–adjective
1.    aware of one's own existence, sensations, thoughts, surroundings, etc

Only we posses the ego concept of "self". Only man is blessed (or is it cursed) with free will. All other living creatures follow the will of their Creator naturally.

[Soilarch]

This is thought provoking...and how I WISH there was a hunting show that did have a Q&A like this Killdeer.  

I'd have to say that since we can't ask them we really can't know...but be can know their maker and believe what He tells us.  He tells they are for us to have control over, for us to take care of, for us to eat, and most importantly so we can marvel at His design and craftsmanship and be thankful/honored He entrusts them to us.

[preflex]

it really depends on how you define intelligent or to what you are comparing it because a deer isnt as intelligent as a human in the fact that it lacks reasoning an the ability to problem solve and use tools but in their own enviroment they are geniouses because they are able to survive like nothing in an area that we might not be able to

[Brian Krebs]

I know deer are sentient. I have seen them grieve over the loss of young; and then move on. They move on pretty fast; but that does not mean they are not aware of life and death; and their own reality.

 I participated in some deer necropsy's at the Edwin SW George reserve in Michigan; and I was there when bird was found in the 'stomach' of a deer. Later in my life I saw deer stalking and then catching birds; and playing with them like a cat does. Deer have their own reality. Elk and bears and lions all have their own realities.

 We live in our own reality; and step back and look at that reality; and you will question ~our~ intelligence.  

 I am a predator; an omnivore; an eater of meat. I do not apologize for that.

 I think NOT hunting deer is inappropriate. Deer are creatures that know that they are in danger from other animals. WE are one of those animals.
 
 To take away the right of the deer to be a deer- with all the ramifications of it; we step outside the rules of nature- and ultimately the deer will suffer because of it. Overpopulation in deer: leads to disease and starvation and death.

 They are aware; they are intelligent; they can be unaware; and so can we.  

  My grandson sat in a stand at my bear bait this spring; and a bear came in several times. He was unable to give flight to an arrow when it was there- but his comment when he came back from that nights hunt was very important to me and to him.
 He said: "Poppa- until tonight I had no idea that there was anything in the woods that was that smart; that was so intelligent".
 He has yet to take on an old doe or an aged buck or elk.
 
 There is nothing wrong with our role as a predator; and there is nothing wrong with the completion of that in our hunting.

 I honor the things I take with my bow. Its one of the big reasons I use a traditional bow. I honor my role; and their role; and our interaction.

 I do think we owe the animal and ourselves the memory of a quick kill. The arrow normally lets the animal run off; as it always has run from danger. With or without us hunting them; deer will eventually die. Nothing lives forever.

  If a person does not have the genetics to desire to hunt; then they should not hunt. If they do not respect the animals they hunt; then they should not hunt.

 But to follow our genetic codes that are activated by hunting is no more wrong than for a cat to want to chase a mouse; or a hawk to desire to hunt and kill.

 The one rule of life; is that something has to die: so you can live.

[Bullet_Bob]

My Dog is smarter than a lot of people I know. And she knows it.

[KentuckyTJ]

My 10 year old daughter has many friends that come through my man cave on a weekly basis and on two occasions I've heard them question her about why her Daddy has killed these beautiful animals and hung them on the wall. My ear still hurts from pressing it against the wall. In both cases she has relayed to them (a learned response) that all animals were created for our benefit. She then goes into telling them that by displaying them that is a sign of respect for the animals life.

[VAFarmer]

I respect the animals that I take, for whatever reason.

I like to think I hunt only to supplement my diet-or out of necessity-like killing the coyotes that would bring down some of the younger calves.

God created animals AND men.   He intendend for us to use them in stewardship how we see fit.   I do think there is a point where-even with hunting-taking an animals life can be wasteful.   Is this killing or murder?  I pray and meditate on tough issues like this, and ususally come out with an answer.

But as far a being setient-or whatever-really makes no differerence.  It is the circle of life- many a human has been killed by beasts-with little regard by the beast for the humans capacity to reason or love.

I do believe that not a single life is taken without the Almighty God of Abraham knowing- and that is what I take into account when I breathe in steadily-draw back-and release............

Farmer

[Lost Arra]

What Shaun said.  

"Attribution of human motivation, characteristics, or behavior to inanimate objects or animals" AKA Anthropormorphism can be a slippery slope to Walt Disney's Bambi-ism.