Figure This One Out For Me

[Oliverstacy]

How could a Flemish have more of a chance than an endless loop even if it was possible?      They both follow the string grove (some are cut not always the greatest...many without a jib and by hand).

If you have a Flemish loop and an endless loop of the same size (loop diameter) how on earth can the string type make a difference?  They both should put the same amount of pressure on the same part of he grove.

I’m going with left strung standing in corner…improper stringing…operator error?

I’m new but gee wiz!

Josh

[Bear]

"The Acme of foolishness" -Ulysees Everitt McGill, "Oh Brother, Where Art Thou"

Here's a simple fix to a non-existant problem; shoot a longbow.

[wapiti792]

Chad perhaps the last 8 strings you have made me will cause my bow limbs to twist...can you send me eight more so that I can do some research on limb twist for you?  

[**DONOTDELETE**]

Chad, You selling that brake a bow string again? My God if you need to sell a bow that bad just drop the price...

O-wait I didn't read the second post.    

 

Originally posted by LBR:
I forgot to mention--if it matters, the string in question isn't one I made, and the bow in question isn't one I sell.

Chad

MY BAD  

[JC Jr]

I’ve been watching this thread with a lot of interest because I know of a situation similar to the one Chad describes.  The bowyer tells the client that his limb twisted due to the string he’s using and refuses to replace the limbs. I admit my first thought was simply… poppycock. Now… just because I never heard of such a thing, doesn’t mean it can’t happen, so I was hoping to learn some bowyer’s thoughts in this thread.  

I’ve built about two dozen one-piece recurves, takedowns, and longbows but do not profess to be a bowyer; I’ve built my own endless and Flemish strings for 40 years and don’t profess to be a string-maker either. I do think I’ve gained some experience, and one the first things I learned in bow-building was that the string grooves needed to be opened up and rounded so the string could have plenty of room with nothing to bind the loop.  

vermonster13’s post is almost word-for-word the explanation given to the client in this particular situation.  While I’m open to learning more about this “string causing limb twist” speculation, I’m currently still of the opinion that it’s… well… just silly, and I think Killdeer’s post is probably the more accurate.

Honestly, at this point, to me it looks more like a contrived notion to lend plausible deniability to negate the bowyers liability.  But I’m still open to learn.  :^)   I hope “other” bowyers or string-makers might see this thread and weigh in.

[WildmanSC]

I'm not so sure a bowyer is trying to negate liability.  I tend to think the owner strung the bow improperly.  I use a bow stringer when stringing my bows, even the longbows.  If he used the step through method on a recurve, there is a very high probably that he did the twisting of the limb himself.

Killie,

You trying to make us look/feel silly?    :confused:        

Bill

[JC Jr]

Bill,

I agree with you, but that's not what we're talking about.  In this scenario, the bowyer blamed the limb twist on the string, not improper stringing, storing, etc.

[Jason R. Wesbrock]

If by their very design, flemish strings are prone to twisting recurve limbs, I highly doubt nearly every custom recurve maker out there would be providing flemish strings with their bows.

If a bowyer ever told me that his limbs were at risk of twisting due to the use of a flemish string, I'd run, not walk, in the other direction. I'm far from a "bowyer," but I can make a more stable recurve limb than that in my basement.

[Jason R. Wesbrock]

Originally posted by vermonster13:
"The other thing to be aware of is the bow limb itself, the new exotic materials used in these bows completely change the traditional, structural physics of a bow. For example the use of carbon in a bow limb, carbon is much stiffer a material that it requires a reduction of core thickness of around 40%. That is quite significant when trying to stabilize a limb in tillering; it also makes it more susceptible to twisting from mistreating the bow."
 

I know you’re just repeating what you were told, but with all due respect, I don’t buy that explanation for a second. I have two sets of Winex limbs in my basement. Those limbs have no fiberglass and no wood or bamboo core material. They’re some type of carbon and foam construction and their lateral stability is phenomenal.

I can grab the tip of a glass/wood recurve limb and torque (twist) it back and forth easily. By comparison, doing that with Winex limbs feels like trying to bend rebar. As a matter of fact, I’d just about defy anyone to torque a Winex limb sufficiently to induce lasting limb twist.

If a bowyer’s limbs are such that the use of a Flemish string can damage them, the problem lies not in the limb materials. It’s the design.

[Ricker]

I think I had a bow twist a string once..........

   

[vermonster13]

Jason those are recurves and very wide. The limbs in question are Hybrid longbows. With the Flemish string on it, they sure looked to be twisted, it was taken off and the limbs were put in the mold and they were dead straight. The Flemish was restrung the way described above and everything was straight. An endless loop string was put on the bow was instant straight while strung. The bow has been shipped back with the string that was sent in with it and a new endless loop string.

Everything ships with endless from Black Swan now. For me they've been a little faster and quieter on mine.

[Bjorn]

Are we talking about a bowyer making this claim? A&H, Bob Morrison, OL Adcock, and others, are credible bowyers utilizing carbon and state of the art mfg techniques-they all send out bows with Flemish loop strings, and surely would not do that if those strings were to harm the bows. Personally, I would steer clear of a bowyer who blamed limb twist on string type alone.

[BobW]

Originally posted by vermonster13:
The Flemish was restrung the way described above and everything was straight.

So the string wasn't the cause, but being strung incorrectly was.....looks to me like neither the bow or the string are at fault.

[rraming]

I read that as well on on of these forums - hogwash!

[DCM]

Arvid's comments are certainly plausible.  But tip overlays, limb and string groove design could easily mitigate the tendancy, perhaps entirely, as is demonstrated in the rest of the marketplace.  There would be a price for this design change obviously, adding limb mass at the string grooves will rob cast... even if only a tiny little bit.  So my first reaction is, true but it's just like saying running pump gas in a top fuel dragster will not work and likely cause damage.  In a practical sense nobody drives a top fuel dragster to work.  Similarly, nobody buys a bow designed solely for speed and at the expense of this level of resilience or useability.

At least I know what bow/bowyer it is now.

[vermonster13]

The limb tips in that version of the hybrid are sensitive to the twist in the flemish string, it also probably didn't help that Arvid is left handed and made his own flemish strings at that time. No left hand hybrids from then have had any problems that I am aware of. The fellow who owns the bow had it for 16 months before he mentioned anything to Arvid (the bows have a 1 year warranty against defect) and it has been taken care of anyways.

The bow is a 74@28 which probably didn't help the matter.

[vermonster13]

Those limbs were built for about six months maybe and have been widened since. He also explained how to properly string that bow when he sold them.

[Bjorn]

This is getting good now-I'm going to make some more coffee...............anybody else?

[Walt Francis]

All I can say is thanks!  I have always used Flemish strings, which must be why none of my bow end up with straight limbs.  From now on I will use an endless string so the bows I make won’t end up with twisted limbs like this one:

 

Seriously, the bowyer should round the string groves so the string aligns itself when the bow is drawn.  Also, if the limbs are that temperamental, I wouldn’t trust them to hold up while I am running around the hills chasing elk.

[Jason R. Wesbrock]

Originally posted by vermonster13:
The limb tips in that version of the hybrid are sensitive to the twist in the flemish string...

Then it's a design flaw in the bow. A&H makes extremely radical carbon-limbed hybrid R/D longbows with extremely small tip overlays. They come standard with flemish strings. I've never once heard of them having a limb twist problem.

Either way, if any bow limb design were so unstable that it could be twisted by simply using a flemish string, I'm not sure I'd want to subject it to rigors of bowhunting.