Endless Loop Versus Flemish

[Ragnarok Forge]

Ok,

So I am fairly new to trad archery only been back at it for 5 months. After 20 years spent   compound shooting.  I shot recurves in high school.  So the question here is does an endless loop string tend to shoot faster than a flemish string of the same count and material.  I have already surmised from other posts that endless loop strings tend to be noisier than flemish.  Lets here it from all the old hands and string pro's out there.

[wharvey]

I think an saw an article in one of the sold out editions of Trad Bow Hunter that tested this. They were building strings with different materials with same and different weights. If memory serves the endless string was slightly faster than an identically weighted flemish.

The key word there is slightly. I think the difference was on the order of 5 fps or less, which is pretty much meaningless in practice.

[BowZen]

Bowyers like Mike Fedor and Jack Harrison advocate using the endless loop strings just for the reason you stated- you get 5-8fps. Think about it, carbon adds that sort of performance and people pay $100's more for that.

[LBR]

A well made endless string will be faster than a poorly made flemish, and vice-versa, if the materials, strand count, serving size and length, etc. are all the same.

I know Jack Harrison and Mike Fedora are well respected as bowyers, but I haven't heard of either one competeing.  Many of the top 3-D archers use flemish strings, while others use endless.

If you are picking up 8 fps using an endless over a flemish, there's some big differences in the string (different material, different strand count, different serving size, etc.) or the faster one is well made and the slower one is poorly made......or all of the above.  The same applies if you are seeing that kind of speed gain with flemish over endless.

Sure, Olympic archers used endless strings...I've heard a few reasons why, the most logical being that endless strings are easier to duplicate from one builder to the next.  Personally, I think it's a mental thing.  All I can do here is offer an opinion, because I have never heard the reason straight from the horse's mouth.

I make a lot of strings, and I make both flemish and endless.  I'm a hunter who shoots a lot of 3-D.  My preferance, as a hunter, is flemish.  

That's what it boils down to, if you compare apples to apples--preferance.

Chad

[George D. Stout]

It's all about balance; shootability, speed, vibration, etc.  Speed is only one aspect of any setup, and the string is just part of the process.  If you look for nothing but speed, something will probably suffer in the end.  I like the adjustability of flemish-twist, and a well made one will do as well as good endless loop.  The advantage of endless loop is less strands in the loop itself, and supposedly less stretch.  Well-made modern flemish twist strings are more adjustable and that's why I prefer them.

[Rob DiStefano]

choosing string types isn't a contest, it's just a choice,  

both flemish and endless will get the job done.  

try both types, see what works best for ya.

more important than the string type is the string fiber type as it relates to your bow, the string's strand count, how well the string is made, how well the string loops fit the limb nocks, the center serving fit to the arrow nock.

the rest is pure choice.

choose wisely.

again - either string type will work equally well for a hunting bow.

[LBR]

I didn't mean to imply otherwise Rob.  I'll try again.

To me, on my bows, flemish strings are quieter.  As a hunter, that is a big factor to me, and largely what I base my choice on. It's not a race to me at all--I make both, I charge the same for both, and it takes me about the same amount of time for one as it does the other.  I even shoot both now and then, just to see if anything has changed.


I can't remember who it was, but someone chimed in on another thread about big performance increases with one over the other.  I forget the name of the thread, but I sure would like to hear more details on that one.

Chad

[Rob DiStefano]

i think your first post pretty much nailed it, chad.

a poorly built string is inferior to superbly built string - no matter what the string type.

both string types will get the job done, no matter what the objective - killing animals, foam or paper.  

personally, i don't find any perceived shot noise difference between the two types with my longbow(s).  

yes, endless can be built and cloned to very precise spex, which is the predominant reason why paper punchers choose 'em (so they tell me).

try both, choose whatever works best for ya!  

like i said, it ain't a contest of any kind and anyone that sez their kinda string is the *only* string to use is full of donkey dust.      

[newtradgreenwood]

I own a Fedora 560 recurve.  Chad made me a 16/10 (16 strands end loops, 10 strands rest of string) flemish twist & a 10 strand endless loop for my bow.  The endless shot better (little more consistent and accurate), but had a bit more noise. The flemish was about 20 grains heavier, so I assume it was a little slower (no chronograph, but based on arrow spine reaction).  

I then had Chad make me a 12/8 flemish twist. It was the most quiet of the three strings and shot just as consistent as the endless loop & weighed the same as the endless loop 10 strand).

I think the reason was because the Fedora has small limb tips & stirng grooves, & needs a relatively small ends of the string to fit properly.  The bow was also was inconsistent when I tried felt on the limbs to reduce noise before experiementing with different string types.

[Rob DiStefano]

i think there is a lot to be said about at least trying out a low strand count ('skinny') string.  

with my longbow(s), i've dropped down to 8 or 6 strands from 14 strands, for an endless string, and the twang factor just about went away (before adding wool hush puppy string silencers).

endless strings require extremely little wax, since it's the loop servings that hold it all together (as opposed to the twists of a flemish string).  this is one reason why i use bcy dyneema'02 string fiber - essentially, it's the low wax version of dynaflight'97.

[Littlefeather]

I really can't tell a lot of difference between many of the strings(dacron excluded) but the one thing I do know for cercain is that Rob builds the nicest endless strings I've ever had the honor to shoot. I still shoot Rob's endless on my bowfish rig. It's killed tons and tons of fish and never let me down.     I do tend to shoot flemish on most of my bows simply because I like the look and I can build them myself. CK