Whitetail herd managment question?

[katie]

I hunt in 80 acers of Iowa timber.  It has to the south crops, east is timber( 1/2 is a hunting reserve), north side is mainly crp grass fields, and east side is my house on 10 of prairie the rest in crops.  This is Iowa so it is corn and beans.
We have always tried to take as many does as our state allows, doesn't happen much.  With the bucks, we only shoot if it is bigger than any we have ever taken, or has a very cool rack.  Is this a good mangement plan?  We seems to have 4x4's a dime a dozen.  Last week I let a 8 pointer walk on by.  I see him every year out of the same stand.  I have him on camera for 3 years.  He follows the same trail like clock work.  He never gets any bigger.  His rack and neck fill out a bit, but not much.  My trail camera show that the other 8 pointers get older each year, but their racks don't seem to get much larger as well.  Should we be taking some of these bucks to even out the breeding?  We get 2 buck tags each.  A lot of years we don't punch either.  I would rather the big boys be breeding my does.  
I am also considering getting a tag for gun season this year as well.  Just for the point of thinning the herd.
I figure some of you on this site have a wealth of knowlede on this subject.  I would be gratefull if you would share it.
Thanks- Katie

[wingnut]

Katie,

Taking a mature buck 6yrs out of the herd is OK too.  Genetics command the antlers, after they mature, they don't usually add any points.  That is an 8 point at 4 yrs is usually a larger 8 pt at 6.

Mike

[leatherneck]

Well, lets start out with the amount of land. It's soooo difficult to control the herd when you only have 80 acres. Not impossible, but hard. But the current plan you have in place is exactly what we do. Keep the doe herd down. Also thin out the buck herd. What I mean is if you see a buck(like the one you described) that has lost potential, by all means get him out of the gene pool. Ever heard the saying "I took a management buck".
Alot also depends on hunting pressure around your area. If it's light, then your success in manageing 80 acres has increased. If it's heavy pressure then it will be difficult. With the food sources you have available to your deer, they should be getting bigger.
All in all, keep doing what your doing. Add taking out some of those non productive bucks and your doing your part. This of course is what we have found to be productive. Although 500 acres is much easier to do this on. Good luck!

BTW- Ever see that biggun again you were after last year?

[jcar315]

IMO: if your question is if by shooting 8 pointers you will "help" your local genetics I would disagree.

I do agree with taking a buck that would be at the top end of your area or is 3.5 years and up.

If the deer you keep seeing meets this than why wait?

shooting does does more for the "herd" than thinning bucks IMO.

Something to keep in mind that deer have lots of twins and sometimes twin buck fawns. I have seen what I thought were different deer that looked "alike" but when I saw them together I could tell that they were "twins" or at the least were two different deer.

Shoot does. Shoot older age bucks. Most important is to have fun doing it.

[**DONOTDELETE**]

What do you want? Older bucks or bigger racks? If you are only seeing 8 pointers then you need to take some of them out, most of the time it is genetics and the buck is only going to be a 8 pointer.

Taking out a few bucks is good , it lets other buck come in to your area and in a few years You'll start to see bigger rack bucks. Start a deer log, ever deer DOE or buck taken write it down Age, Sex, points. This log plus talking to a State Biologist will help you get a good DQM plan going.

Also try here for more Great Info  http://www.qdma.org/

[Gatekeeper]

If I am reading your post correctly your wondering if shooting some of the smaller antlered bucks is a good thing. And the reason for shooting them is because they aren’t growing the rack size that you want to see.

Quality deer management is about providing good habitat and a balanced herd. The typical issues that most hunters are dealing with are small antlered bucks and usually this is traced back to an unbalanced herd. Meaning the bucks aren’t allowed to live long enough to show their antler growth potential.

QDM encourages hunters to shoot does and let the little bucks walk. Of course this kind of management only works if you have a large enough place to keep the bucks on or have neighbors that share the same goals.

You described an eight point that hasn’t changed in antler size for a season or two and you have evidence to back up your claim. So with that in mind the eight point, IMO, is a deer that you should take out of the herd.

Good luck and keep us posted.

[straitera]

Inferior genetics will only grow so big. If it's 8-point 3 straight years, it's time to go. Also, supplemental vitamins & minerals will produce heavy mass. Start with proper buck/doe ratio (1 to 3 if possible) as it will eliminate inferior breeding. Remove tall spikes & does. Let young symetrical mass walk. 2 years you'll have big healthy shooters. Tell your neighbors of your plan & maybe they'll participate. No high fence needed. Our Texas deer may not dress heavy but you'll never question their racks. Much of the state is managing now although it isn't mandatory. See Texas deer pix posted a few days ago.

[ron w]

If you know a buck is 3-5 years old and he is an 8 pt, or as you folks say a 4x4 I would think that thats as good as he is going to get,you should take him. First, there is nothing wrong with a 4x4, and second I would bet he'd eat good. Any deer 3-5 years old is mature an a fine trophy, at least in my eyes. Take'n some does to keep things in balance is good also.

[GANGGREEN]

I'll come out, take a look around and help out with whatever management I feel is necessary.  Send me directions and I'll start driving.  I imagine I could find a few other guys if killing more than one or two 8 pointers was deemed necessary.  

[Talondale]

I think, first, you need to have a realistic expectation of what kind of impact you really have.  80 acres is small by management standards.  Most say you need over 400 acres before you can effectively "control" a group of deer.  Their range is just too broad.  Second, there are a lot of things that affect antler growth; nutrition, pressures/stress (overpopulation), and even another dominant buck can suppress antler growth in sub-dominate bucks, and probably the #1 factor AGE, followed in a distant last - genetics.  Most people don't have the resources (acreage, fences, restricted hunting) to effectively fiddle with genetics.  I wouldn't worry about genetic "potential".  There are plenty of examples of pen raised deer going from a spike to world class if given two main ingredients: time and nutrition.

I would concentrate on taking a certain age range if you really want to improve the bucks in your area, as much as you can on 80 acres.  Learn to tell a 4.5 year buck from a 2.5 year buck, decide what age structure you're going to take out and let the antlers be what they are.  Reducing the number of does in your area, if you have too many does, helps improve the habitat and the quality of nutrients available for the bucks that remain.  Create areas that the bucks feel safe (1 acre thicket you NEVER enter - buck sanctuary) to attract and keep bucks on your property.  You can improve nutrients by simply fertilizing native food species already on your property as well.  Plenty of nutrients help a buck come out of the rut in better shape.  The better shape he ends the rut the more energy he'll likely have to survive the winter and put into next year's antlers.

The main ingredient is age and the willingness to accept that come rut he can be a mile away and shot by someone who doesn't hold the same higher standard you do.  Don't stress about it too much and just take the deer that you want to take and let the rest walk; to either be appreciated by another hunter or to live to see another year.

If you want more detailed information I'd suggest ordering and reading Dr. Kroll's   A Practical Guide to Producing and Harvesting White-tailed Deer
.

[Pat B]

Katie, I hunt a 250ac track in GA and it has been under Quality Deer Management(self imposed) for over 10 years now. Even though it is a relatively small track of land we have seen a big improvment in the quality of the herd. We shoot every doe we can but during archery season no bucks less than 4 points on either side and for gun season nothing less than 15"inside spread...or any buck over 3 1/2 years old. That is the tricky part, the aging. Any deer that is considered "untouchable" is a $100 fine.shot ..I know this for a fact! d;^)
  We got our initial QDM information from Joe Hamilton, one of the founders of QDMA(he was our state biologist in SC when QDMA first began in 1988) and our youngest member is a graduate from UGA in timber and wildlife managment.
   Allowing the smaller bucks to walk and removing does and mature bucks really has kept our heard healthy. Our club is not heavily hunted and has lots of heavyily brushed areas(cut and replanted in pines 9 years ago) so it is a haven for the local deer and that has been a help also. We also talked our neighbor into QDM for the folks that lease his land and that also helps. He owns 2500 ac that is on three sides of our club.

[Brian Krebs]

See- from my viewpoint - kill any deer that is dumb enough to be killed. The reward of life for deer should be intellect; the successful use of their eyes; and ears; and nose; and brain.
 The presence of big antlers to take a deer; only promotes big antlers; not a strong natural wild instinctive creature.... as deer are supposed to be.
 It seems like everywhere you go without a high fence; you will find the remains of an old deer that made it through every obstacle in life until old age took them.
 My grandsons hand fed a huge pen raised elk - which later was shot in a pen ( on a tv 'hunting show) ... it didn't even know to run from the shooter; or to run when it was hit. It was about enough to make me vomit.
 The line is not that fine. Either you except nature - or you tweak it to your needs... or perhaps lack of ability.
 I may never shoot a really big whitetail - but when I do it will be a wild one; and one that figures every human is out to make him into dinner.
 Until that shot comes on that big buck; the smaller ones will fall; and so will the does.
 A 'Quality deer' to me - is a deer that is wild; and that uses all its facilities ; and is very much aware of its prey status.....

[Morning Star]

From what I've witnessed, 80 acres isn't nearly enough to make an impact.  I know a few people who try with no such luck.  One guy even manages 300 acres, his biggest bucks always seem to get whacked during the rut on public land that's about a mile away.     :D    
There is one person locally who owns 600 acres, and is having some good success.  He's the only one I know of who's regular with keeping big ones.

I say enjoy what ya got, shoot those old bucks.  Not many even have that opportunity.

The more I've learned, the less shooting a deer that's been raised on food plots and photographed since it's had spots appeals to me


.......that's unless they want to wander onto my hunting spots.  :D

[overbo]

IMO.
One would have to make the entire 80 acres a sanctuary and only hunt it on edges.Don't be concerned w/ the bucks there but work w/ keeping does there as much as possible and the bucks will come.You don't have enough ground for rutting bucks but if you have plenty of ladies for the bucks to court,you never can tell what will show up.

[laxbowman]

Katie,

I hunt a similar property in northern indiana.  Just like you said, crops on the south, crp to the north, and house to the east.  There are 4 of us who hunt it regularly and the regarded rule is that u dont shoot anyhting under 130" unless its your first buck.  Here we can only shoot one buck per year so we usually dont want to waste it on a small deer.  We have killed big deer on this property but like many other people have already said, less than 100 acres is too small to manage the herd.  We try to keep promising bucks around and by doing that we hope other hunters around us will do the same.  

When it comes taking out bucks that seem not good enough, we will shoot a 2.5-3.5 yr old with a big body and a dinky rack for breeding purposes /greater good of the deer population in our area.

You should talk to the people that hunt around you and see how they are hunting their land.  Hopefully, you can all get on the same page and "manage" the larger area as a whole

[Morning Star]

You should talk to the people that hunt around you and see how they are hunting their land. Hopefully, you can all get on the same page and "manage" the larger area as a whole  

Was just gonna say that myself, a friend of mine that has 60 acres is in that process right now.

[KentuckyTJ]

Lots and lots of supplemental feeding. Any biologist will tell you bucks will grow bigger racks with more points when they have year round high protein feed. The corn and beans are great but they are only used maybe a 1/3 of the year. On 80 acres get two large protein pellet feeders and you will see dramatic improvements very quickly. I will warn you though. If you choose to do this your doe harvesting will become even more important as they will move in in groves.

You also need water and cover if you have all three of these you will get better deer. You will most likely not be able to keep them on 80 acres but they will visit often.

Being in Illinois you have the genetics.

[bm22]

If you are managing for good horns you need to shoot the small young bucks, let the bigger young deer live, if you can only kill 2 bucks i would shoot the smallest 2-3 yr old bucks you can. The older mature deer will die out faster than young bucks will and the 3-4 yr olds do most of the breeding anyway, at least in areas of alot of deer.

Shooting the bucks doing the most breeding will be the best bang for your money, why waste a tag on an old buck that wont breed alot and probably wont make it through the winter.

If you are surrounding most of the cropland and your deer population dont leave you can manage the place.

Also if there is one 8 you see every year and you keep seeing more young 8's, who do u think is breeding most of your doe's?!?!?!?!? I'm gonna go out on a limb and say the 8 you see every year :-P kill him and you create a vaccum of dominant buck then maybe a better buck will be your breeder. I would have shot him on sight asap , there is no reason to ler him live and kill other better bucks that could be breeding your doe's you are protecting him as the dominant buck.
Jmo

[Shaun]

There is little you can do with 80 acres to manage the deer herd. A doe group might stay in an 80 but mature bucks will travel as much as 5 miles during the rut. That is the same as traveling across 2500 acres - and that is in only one direction! So, you either need a large neighborhood plan - like a township here in Iowa - or a huge (for Iowa) farm or a high fence.

Also, here in Iowa one third of all the deer are killed each year - half by hunters and half by vehicles. If you do the math, you will see that a buck has less than a 1 in 100 chance of making it to 5 years old!

Big bucks are found where there is big timber. That means NE Iowa and the river corridors in other parts of the state.

The only effective management method for us Iowagians is to talk to our neighbors. There are usually local farmer groups that gather each year for deer drives in shotgun season. Talk to them. They have the same group year after year and meet at the same farmstead year after year. Many of these groups remember the 1970's when shooting ANY buck was a big deal, even with a gun. Encourage them to shoot does and wall hangers only.

One group near me has about 50 basket racks nailed to the barn wall. They used to pride themselves in filling all their tags with bucks in the first day or two. It took me several years to finally convince them to modify their standards, but they have.

Of course, you will have to lead the way. Tell folks about the idea and then show them that you can do it.

[Steve Kendrot]

I think the assumption that managing for bigger antlers (ie removing " inferior" bucks) improves the herd is a weak one. Who's to say that big antlers mean healthier more fit deer. Something is lost when it all becomes about bigger is better antlers. I think striving for a balanced sex and age ratio and managing the herd below carrying capacity will result in a healthy more mature animal and bigger antlers will be a byproduct.  If your managing for big antlers you are managing for the benefit of people, not the deer.