Ultra EFOC - How?

[Ragnarok Forge]

Ok,

This question is for all of you fiddlers with  and tuners of arrows.  I have a 30.25 inch draw length. I shoot a 55 lb reflex deflex longbow with bamboo core limbs  I am presently using Axis FMJ 500 arrows with 275g grains up front and I am getting 21.5% FOC.  I just read up on a post that covered footed shafts and it stated not to glue them in for to much of the foot length or it would stiffen the shaft spine.  

Here is my question.  Since the foot can stiffen the arrow a bit and I need to stiffen mine to be able to add more weight up front, Would gluing in 4 to 5 inches of a 7 inch oak footing stiffen and arrow enough for me to put 350 or 400 grains up front which would push me towards the 30% Ultra Extreme FOC mark?

I am fiddling with arrows and wanted some input prior to actually starting the testing process to see if I could get a higher FOC with my long draw length and arrows.  Right now the arrows are tuned perfectly and I can only add another 25 grains to the tip and chop them a hair to get good flight.  I need to stiffen them up a bit if I want to push my FOC any further forward

[Soilarch]

What's your draw length?

The easiest would be to cut them as short as possible and then tune by adding weight.

Can you switch out to a thinner rest plate?


And then the ultimate question is where is the point of diminishing returns FOR YOU?   If you're trying to get a hunting setup dialed in I'd suggest you leave well enough alone. (If I recall 19% is the threshold to get the EFOC benefits.)  If you're simply having fun then I'd say go for it and report back.

Good luck.  I'm trying not to experiment too much until I get some serious time logged in the woods and some meat in the freezer.  I'm being mildly successful.

[Ragnarok Forge]

My draw length is 30.25 inches.  I have my hunting arrows dialed and I am not messing with them at all.  

I am already looking out a year and fiddling around to determine what I will be hunting with next year.  

The only way to go with a thinner rest plate would be to remove it entirely it is already really thin.

I am working up some Ultra Extreme FOC arrows for fun and to figure out if I can do it or not with a fairly long draw length.  I want the arrow to do at least 160 fps as well.  I may have to up my bow poundage to 65 lbs instead of 55 lbs to get the speed I want with the heavier arrow.    

I will keep everyone posted as I keep fiddling with things and let you all know what does and does not work for me.

[Richie Nell]

Soilarch...I don't think 19% is threshhold for EFOC benefits.  The latest research suggest different... in a huge way. Not sure if the TOP has been reached at even 30% UEFOC.

Clay..I have also been hand loading a few arrows
to increase my FOC.  I am pulling 71-72 lbs at 31-ish inches.  I have built some GT 7595's with 27% EFOC that fly really well at 850 grains.
I also have a GT Big Game 100 that is 850 grains at 29.3% EFOC that bareshafts excellent with a broadhead...and flys excellent with 3 in. turkey feathers as well. It shoots 172 fps.
The baddest medicene so far is a GT Big Game 100
that is 995 grains and 31.02% UEFOC.  It is a serious weapon that really hushes up my widow recurve as well.

Getting the most FOC out of your arrow has to do with weight management as well as the sweet spot of fulcrum length.
It is not ALL about cutting your arrow as short as possible and then adding weight to weaken the spine and get FOC.
I have one arrow that is 28.?? % EFOC and weighs 881 grains.  Another that 29.3% EFOC is 1/2 inch LONGER and weighs 850 grains.  The length of the lever can allow for higher FOC...IF you get a stiff enough arrow that will allow you to keep it long.

Richie

[Jesse Peltan]

Ok, you want to first cut the arrow as short as possible. Then add the entire oak dowel as internal shafting. Both will stiffen the spine weight so that you can add more point weight. To get the right spined dowels just weight 1/4in oak dowels and the dozen closest in weight will be closest in spine weight. The other thing you could do is buy a heavier spine weight shaft and add extra point weight. BTW the internal oak shaft make the arrows almost indestructible. It's like the internal footing on steroids. You might want to glue it in though otherwise they can pop out and push your nock out.

[ozy clint]

ummm.....you have to build out your strike plate to stiffen your arrow, not make it thinner.

[Dave Bulla]

Clint, you beat me to it.

Now this thread has one aspect that really interests me that I'd never heard of before.  The use of the wooden dowel inside I HAVE heard of but not that it can stiffen the arrow if you glue it in place more than a couple inches.  That is great news for me if it works.

I've tried carbons starting last year and have some CE heritage 350's which are about as stiff as I can find but since I only cut 3/4" off the raw shaft, I have a hard time getting the point weight I want.  With 100gr brass inserts, I can't go above 125 gr points or they are too weak.  I'd like to hear more about the glued dowel and how it stiffens the arrow.  I understand the concept that it's like shortening the arrow because there is less length of arrow that can flex but how much can you push the concept.

Clay, if you try it, I'd be interested in the results.  Oh, and sorry for butting in with my own questions....

Richie, you're close to my set up.  Actually you are shooting a bit more weight but I'm pulling farther.  (actually been working on shortening up a bit)  My bow is 65 at 32, hybrid longbow with FF string.  I'd like to end up about just on the short side of 800gr total.

[onewhohasfun]

Last spring the thread , "Perfect Arrow"ran here,30 or so pages long. Adcock and Ashby. The wooden dowel thing was to make arrows almost indestructable. I made a couple and yes they are tough, but they are noisey. Others on here had the same result. A noticeable click or clack upon release, not from being too stiff but from internal footing clanking inside the shaft as 5 inches of the footing floats inside to allow for flex. My hardwood I F's weighed 27 grns. Fun experiment. Tom

[freefeet]

I understand that the "perfect arrow" was done with a tapered dowel with the intention of making a tougher arrow.  But if the intention is to use a dowel to stiffen spine only then it wouldn't need to be tapered and would be glued all along its length thus the noise issue should disappear.

Another thought comes to mind over this difference as well.

If you use a hard heavy wood then you're putting a lot of weight further back up the shaft.  My thinking here is that by using a light weight wood you could stiffen the static spine at the front of the arrow, while at the same time effectively moving the BOP back thus increasing dynamic spine while minimising the weight used.  That weight saving can then be added as point weight to increase FOC further.

My thoughts are using something like balsa.  Parralel internal footed and glued it's whole length should stiffen the spine quite dramatically while adding very little weight back up the shaft.

Just some thoughts, haven't tried any of this as i can't afford to keep buying carbons.

[SlowBowke]

Ive got Ulta EFOC and only one way I could but have given thought to the IF too.

There are carbons out there of very light GPI yet of decently stiff spine.

Not only is the weight up front giving you higher FOC, LESS weight behind is as , if not more, important once you reach a certain point with EFOC.

Agreed, building OUT the strike plate is a huge leap towards it as well and I did so on my heavier bow.

I can take a very light GPI shaft spined FOR my 55, add over 350 grains up front, build out the stike plate (less than you would think too) and shoot an over 30 percent FOC arrow out of BOTH my 55 and 43 (not built out).

An additional plus of the very light GPI is you wont end up with a 800 grain arrow either. Mine are 585 grains.

Fly? oh my do they fly NICE. Not all agree and we never will on all subjects but the higher FOC I get, the better I shoot.....at all ranges.

Stability, even with very short, very low fletching is more than adequate and CAN shoot Deadheads on those arrows (weighted) and they group the same and with my 1 inch wide heads.

A great deal of the stability is the result of the VERY short (less than 6 inch) "arm" the blades of the heads have to work with while the fletching has the leverage of using the remaining 24 (approx) inches.

Picking a spine adequate is needed but again, the lower the GPI is......the higher of FOC you can get with it.

That said, 25 percent is pretty easy to get and I think they are a great themselves and most Ive introduced to that set up are more than happy with them at that point.

The ULTRA EFOC is new enough that more info gathering will, in time tell us more, and the main reason Im going there myself is simply the love of "tinkering" but I have to say I'll never shoot another NOT at least high FOC.

Not for everyone, Ill never be the one pointing to anyone that anything they like is "wrong" or "inferior" and will defend everyone's choice long and loud as their right to do so and it obviously fits their shooting/hunting preferences so no changes are "needed".

It, like every bit of equipment we use, hunting method and choice of game.....is an individual decision and we need to support that right to do so as well, IMHO.

For Me?  Oh yeah........!!

[Dr. Ed Ashby]

Clay, several folks posting have it all correct.

Weight management is the key to getting very high amounts of FOC. Reducing weight to the shaft's rear is very important. You want the shaft's rearward weight to be as little as possible, concentrating as much weight as possible as far forward as possible. Low GPI shafts help tremendously.

Reducing the degree of centershot by building the arrow plate OUT; thickening the arrow plate; increases the dynamic spine. That is; it allows a shaft having a weaker static spine to tune properly, or the same shaft to tune with a greater amount of tip weight.

Yes, length of the IF can be used to stiffen the spine. With the IF's I normally use; 7" to 9" OAL, having the back 5 inches tapered, change in the dynamic spine is minor. As the parallel portion of the IF gets longer the spine is progressively stiffened. I've not used any IF's that went beyond 1/2 the shaft length, but there is a big stiffening effect at that length. IF length is definitely a factor that can be used for some 'fine tuning' of the setup.

There will be more Ultra-FOC test results coming in the next few Updates, including (in Part 6) what the testing so far suggest about the percent of penetration gain per 1% FOC increase, once FOC is already into the EFOC range. Next Update (Part 2) will be out in just a few days.

Ed

[artifaker1]

I can see where if you are pretty burly, shoot a heavy bow with a long draw and want some weight up front, it could be tough to find an arrow. I'm shooting a carbon foam long bow with a recurve riser 57lbs at 28 drawing to just under 30. I shoot out of that bow a 100lb+ GT with about 400 up front and it needs to be shortened a little, to about 31 3/4.I could shoot a lot heavier draw weight but what would I use for arrows? I prefer to have the arrow on the center line of the bow because I shoot so many different bows and arrows. And I'm almost out of arrow at 57lb.
One thing I noticed about IF is; if it is not mechanically connected to the insert and point  on extreme hits the arrow will fail right at the end of the insert where the IF starts. I used to use 1/4 allthread behind the insert but stopped when I had a couple come loose. I went to the 2nd generation brass insert from 3R and if I need more up front I drill and tap the insert in the back and add 8/32 allthread screwed and glued into the insert but not touching the shaft.
I wonder if some of the Ash shafts that the Doc mentioned in some of his earlier reports would be the the ticket for very heavy applications instead of IF in a carbon. I hear Ash shafts are very tough and spine heavy.

[Ragnarok Forge]

Guys,

I want to say thanks for all the input so far and keep it coming!  Reading thru this has given me a lot of ideas to try out.  I plan to keep using the FMJ 500's for right now.  Right after hunting season ends in late January I will build out my side plate and see what that can do for me.  Once I find the limit on side plate effect.  I will pick up some oak dowels and start fiddling with glue length on internal footings.  The Brass inserts and attachments with all thread is a great idea too.

Dave,  No problem bud,  ask away.  Any questions we can add to the discussion will definately help all of us find better answers.

I will say that I am really liking the idea of a 300 grain head with 100 or 125 grain insert backed by a 7 inch internal footing that is glued in for 4 or 5 inches of it's length to get the spine I need with a 31 inch arrow.  30.5 inches will leave me 1/4 inch of shaft in front of fingers at full draw.  

Downside here!  For me anyways, I love using tapes on the back of my arrows.  Makes it easier to find the misses on the 3D range.  I am going to have to man up and sacrifice this little bit of personal flourish and arrow finding assistance.  I will hope I can crank things up front enough to put the tapes back on later arrow runs.

[Dr. Ed Ashby]

Have fun with it Clay. I've learned a lot about arrow reaction and flight after a few years of tinkering with EFOC. It's certainly been an education and, though frustrating at times, especially in the early days, when I had no one to ask questions of, it's been a lot of fun. I now look forward to doing my setup development and tuning. Here's hoping you enjoy the mental and physical exercise equally well!

Ed

[Earl Jeff]

what brand arrow have the lightest mass weight but the stiffest spine?

[2treks]

I am shooting some AD HAMMERHEADS with a 100gn. brass insert and a 100gn.steel adapter, and a 165gn. ACE EXPRESS. plus I put in some lead shot to match my practice points.(just using what I had on hand).Total arrow weight is 750+gns. If I remember my FOC was about 27%-28%. This set up will fly like a champ from my 64" 58#@30" R/D LONGWALKER. Not sure on speed, I don't have a speed meter. This set up was easy to make and seem to be tuff as nails. I am not to savvy with all of this foc/efoc stuff but I do know that this arrow will fly as well as my other lighter shafts with just a 125gn. head.

[Dr. Ed Ashby]

Earl, there are a lot of options in light weight shafts. Currently I'm working with the GT Ultra Lights. For the heavier bows I've managed 32% with it so far, but I'm trying to get to at least 35%, for some testing. The higher the FOC gets the more difficult it gets to squeeze that next extra bit of FOC out of the setup.

Ed

[Earl Jeff]

Thanks Mr Ashby take care and God Bless

[Ragnarok Forge]

Who makes the GT Ultralights?  Gold Tip?

[SlowBowke]

Yep, gold tip is the GTs