Carbon shafts...I don't get it ...help ..George ...anyone?

[buckeye_hunter]

It seems that no matter what carbon shaft I use, the spine always shows stiff(nock left). I should note, this is with leaving them full length and NOT cutting to my desired length.

When I was shooting a 43lb bow I understood that it would be hard to get a carbon shaft flying well at that poundage.

BUT.....I just received my new bow and it is 50lbs at my draw. I have Beaman 500's I'm trying to tune. These shafts are supposed to be just about perfect for 45lb recurve at 29 inches with a 125 grain head. I'm shooting 5 pounds more out of my recurve, putting on 200 grain field point and haven't cut them at all. These shafts should be very weak, but they are still knock left(stiff).

What gives? Any help would be greatly appreciated.

-Charlie

[JimB]

Nock left is weak not stiff.If the IMPACT of bare shaft arrows would be left of your fletched arrows,that would be stiff.

Nock left(point right)and impact left are two different things.

You are showing weak.Try reducing point weight and see if that doesn't move things in the right direction.

[dragon rider]

buckeye,

I shoot 3555 Gold Tips out of bows that range from 35# to 49# @28", cut to 30.5" based on my 29" draw, with 175gr points up front and they fly just fine.  

My recommendation would be take one of your arrows, cut it to the length you want and then work with the field point weight to get what you're looking for.  That way if for any reason it doesn't work you've only messed up one arrow.

[Rob DiStefano]

as already stated, nock left in the butt means something's weak - either the shaft or your form or both.

fwiw, i shoot 29.5" beman ics 500's that weigh between 585 and 640 grains, with 30-34% foc, holding @ 55# ... they fly fast and straight.

[Rob DiStefano]

i've spent too much time and money deciphering what carbon shafting to use for various bows.  here are some text excerpts i have recently pm'd to another member ...  

all of the following are my beliefs and opinons - it's what works for me and ymmv!

if you adhere to the carbon spine charts, you're in for troubles. the carbon stiffness range for any carbon arrow is double or triple that of alums or woods. that's how it is imo.

my carbon shaft/arrow testing has settled down to cheap 29.5" beman ics 500 venture/bowhunter for my 29" 56# holding weight.

a critical component is to set the arrow up with as high an foc as possible - at least 20%, and more is absolutely better.

my typical hunting arrow uses 350 grains up front for 29% foc and a total weight of 590 grains for 10.7 gpp. for tough animals like big hogs, i up the entire shaft weight to at least 650 grains, sometimes 710 grains. i add the weight by changing both the broadhead and screw in adapter weight. those really heavy arras are into the 35% foc range.

IF you have a decent consistent shooting style, with a reasonably clean split finger release, high foc carbons will spit out like darts and there are NO tuning issues.

i want to build and use an arrow that has an acceptable amount of weight, at least 10 gpp - all my hunting arrows are at least 10.5 gpp to as high as 12 gpp. i want to dial in as much foc as possible. my hunting arrows range from 29-35% foc.

with carbon arrows, since their spine charts are all off and stiffer than needed, i'll go lots lower in carbon spine rating for all my arrows. remember, carbon shafting is VERY different from both wood and alum shafting - LOTS stiffer! as a result, sticking on lots more upfront weight will rarely, if ever, reduce the spine so much that a stiffer arrow shaft is required.

i DON'T BOTHER to bare shaft tune.  just cut the shaft to length, glue in the ferrule with epoxy, fletch up, add the appropriate point weight (broadhead epoxied to an adapter), shoot.

FOC - (Front Of Center) - there's NO question that high foc arrows fly and penetrate better than low foc arrows. you want as much weight up front as possible. this is easiest to do with carbons - use a glue-on broadhead (125 grains) epoxied to a heavy steel adapter (75-125 grain) screwed in to a heavy brass (50-100 grain) ferrule. this will achieve the highest foc possible. using a screw-in broadhead (125-150 grains) into an aluminum ferrule (40 grains) is the lowest foc (not the way to go, NOT good!!).

here's a link to my arrow calculation spreadsheet charts for both foc and gpp, just plug in your numbers ...

  http://tradgang.com/noncgi/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=2;t=000089  

FLETCHING - your call, 3 or 4 fletch. i prefer 4" banana cut 75x105 4-fletch. with carbons, USE THE BOHNING FLETCHING TAPE! do not bother using glue! after fletching, put a tiny dot of glue at the front and back of each fletch. they will NOT come off during shooting or hunting and yet are relatively easy to strip off if refletching is needed. i've found 6 to 12 month old lost tape fletched arrows buried in the bushes and the fletchings are as solid as the day i put 'em on.

TUNING ARROWS - ok, here's all the important details on how to tune your new carbon arrows to your new whizbang stickbow ....

shoot the arrows.

that's it.

arrows wag left or right in flight (or in the butt at 15 yards or more) - LOOK AT YOUR SHOOTING FORM and RELEASE.  there is NO substitute for good mechanical form AND a clean release!  <--- read that again and again and again, this is the gospel of bow shooting.

arrows go up or down or porpoise - ADJUST THE BOWSTRING NOCKING POINT.

there, now that was easy, eh?   :D  

in addition, if your bow can handle modern string fiber, drop down the strand count.  i see too many 50-60# bows still using 14-16 strands of ff when 12 is way plenty ... better yet, drop down to 10 or 8 strands - your release will be even quieter.  admittedly, low string strand count can hint at a more delicate string, but 8 strands is still plenty durable even when crawling through dense bush.  for practical reasons, i'd never go below 4 strands.  in all of the preceding statements, the modern string fiber i'm referring to has a nomninal strand diameter comparable to df'97 - this excludes the ultra thing F8125 and the overly thick 450+.

hope some of this helps and best of luck afield.

[Hud]

Nice, concise and to the point. Thanks for the info.

[buckeye_hunter]

Great info. I'm going to cut them down where
I want. Then I'll  adjust point weight again.

Thanks,
Charlie

[freefeet]

Rob, in all of that you didn't once mention how far out from centre your bow is cut.  Isn't that a rather important part of the whole equation that people should be aware of when explaining all that stuff?

[Rob DiStefano]

Originally posted by freefeet:
Rob, in all of that you didn't once mention how far out from centre your bow is cut.  Isn't that a rather important part of the whole equation that people should be aware of when explaining all that stuff?

if carbons within reasonable spine range for a given bow are used, when aiming the arrow is used, the riser centershot isn't all that critical.  a point i never fully understood until jim ploen wrote about it in his aiming articles in iam magazine.  he shows how it's done - which is how the real longbow trad archers of yore did it, too.

[koger]

If your bow is center cut, get some GT 35/55 or Vapor 2000's, cut to actual lenght and go with a 150 grain head. I have a #40 adn#43 that shoot these great, centercut risers.

[Bruce Martin]

I think the brass inserts are a must if you are going to get the arrow weight you need from 50+ lb actual draw weights with carbons. As well as the high FOC. I have been shooting 3555 GT's after attending Rick Welch's shooting school with standard inserts and WW's on front. Arrows cut 29.25 inches for my standard 28 inch draw length at 51 lb out of a Crow Creek r/d bow. Not centershot, but arrows fly real nice and bare shaft tune perfectly. I have 3 4 inch shield cut fletches put on with fletch tape (it works!). The Foc calculates at about 26% BUT the total arrow weight is only 470 or so grains. All right, that's slightly less than 10 gpp. Sounds OK except the last 3 deer I have shot (and shot well into the kill zone) did not have pass-throughs. Got both lungs but broadheads remained in the deer. Not acceptable. These deer were close (15 yds) and maybe the arrow had not completely recovered from paradox but it did not appear so. Just appeared to be poor penetration. BTW broadheads were very shaving sharp. Next set is going to have brass inserts for sure.

[Rob DiStefano]

470gr @ 51# is 9.22 gpp.

imo, for a 51# holding weight i'd wanna shoot no less than 510 grains and 550 for 10.78 gpp would be better yet.  i do believe it's the arra weight that really helps do the deed, and best yet if the punch is mostly in the arra's front end (high foc).  particularly with low to mid holding weight stickbows.

[jhg]

One easy way to understand how various arrow spines are delivered from your bow/release style, is go to a range or shop that has about 50 various arrows in different spines available to shoot.
 My local shop, RMSG, offers that and it helped me understand what to look for from a shaft faster than reading all day about it. The differences become obvious right away between stiff and soft and a bad form shot, which really helps when you finally go to tune because you have by then "seen it all" already and know right where you are in the process with one or two shots and why the arrow is doing what its doing.
The doubt is removed from the process and you get to your arrow weight faster because all the uncertainty is gone.
Hope that helps.

Joshua

[Rob DiStefano]

form (no, not 'target archery form'), aiming and release are the keys to both good arrow flight and consistency.  if you have those attributes locked down tight, most any arrow shaft/spine will fly well enuf to hit the mark.

fwiw, here are the 5 text page images of the iam jim ploen article on 'aiming the arrow' ...

 page 29

 page 30

 page 31

 page 32

 page 33

[SuperK]

Hey Rob, please point me in the right direction.  I shoot a 50 lb. Super Kodiak with B50 string.  I only pull about 26.5 inches.  I normally shoot wood arrows 27.5 spined 50-55 with 145 grain point and/or 2016's cut 27.5 with 175 grain point.  They weigh about 500 to 530 grains.  What would be a good carbon arrow set-up that would keep me in the same weight that would give me the most foc possible?  I would like to use 175 grain points if possible.  Thanks for your help.

[buckeye_hunter]

I nearly have them there. I cut them to 29in and they are close to shooting 125 grain heads correctly. I'm going to take another half inch off and see where that puts me. Then I can shoot the 125's and go about my buisness. Those 500's are zipping out of that bow at 50lbs. The nock is a bit high, so I have to adjust for that as well.

-Charlie

[Bruce Martin]

Yes, Rob it was my conclusion that the overall arrow weight was too low and accounted for the poor penetration. However, I just saw your other thread on putting internal footings into carbon arrows using weight tubes and a nail. That is a neat way for me to get the weight up and still use the stock inserts as well as achieve a higher FOC. I will be tweaking those arrows this weekend if not before. Thanks for those ideas and discussion!