Campfire Question

[John Nail]

OK, the day's hunt is over and everyone is back in camp. Supper's over. The dishes are done, broadheads touched up for tomorrow, and the jug is going around.
The topic seems to be big bulls/bucks, and it gets around to me......

I ask "Should we kill the herd bull?"
Hear me out.
I'm not against trophy hunting, so don't take it that way.

I don't think we ought to hunt the herd bull.
Why?
Because he's old and his meat is tough, and you can't stick a fork in the gravy.
Because he has Stamina, is Potent,and Agressive,just  the genetic qualities  that Mom Nature wants passed on to the next generation.
In Nature, Predation is heaviest on the old and weak, and on the very young.
The old and weak to make way for young and healthy, and the very young to keep the population in check.  Makes sense, doesn't it?
Is man's obsession with horns upsetting the Natural order?
I believe it is, and that's the reason I rarely hunt for a specific "Trophy" animal.

How about you?

[Tim Clark]

I don't even look at antlers much anymore. I can't even remember why I used to, except that it was the "mystique" of hunting when I was growing up; all the hunting stories and such, and the guys that always got the biggest racks were always the "most respected." Maybe it has so much to do with ours becoming a Leisure Society. We have time and money for things that no previous generation could have conceived. Instead of "success" meaning that a man fed his family, it means a whole gamut of other tings, so the only way to reward a man's (and to a leser degree, societally, a woman's) hunting success is with "trophy status." Look at sex, even -- it's been a long long time since it was almost solely for procreation, and occasionally there's been times in history when it has nearly gone back to being just that. So instead of the man with 15 kids being thought of as "virile," or a "stud" (I hear that today's kids use the term "pimp" in place of the older word, "stud"??), today it's usually the guy with no kids and twenty girlfriends, or it's measured by "size," or the gal that's got the hottest body (and WOW do definitions of "hott" change from generation to generation!!!) being the greatest trophy.

So for me, I hunt. And like you, I have nothing whatsoever against trophy hunting or trophy hunters. But I do resent the misguided attitude of those that judge others by their own ideas of what make for a successful hunter, or hunt for that matter. Would I pass up a trophy rack? Never. And it isn't a sour-grapes attitude driving my views, it just amazes me to watch the stampedes in every genre being driven by advertising campaigns. The whole "gotta have the newest-biggest-bestest-most expensive" keeping up with the Jones' thing has been going on for what seems like forever.

As for it upsetting The Natural Order, perhaps it's the natural order of man that stands to lose the most when all is said and done. As far as the game is concerned, it has an almost opposite effect on wild game that's hunted than it those species which we've domesticated. How many breeds of dogs and catle are there now, anyway? We can manipulate things our way. But as for wild game? Those that we hunt during the day, are tending toward nocturnal behaviors. Thos with big antlers? Well, we seem to instinctively KNOW where that might lead, so we inplement such programs as QMD, food plots, etc. in order to cause the swing to remain in what we regard as "favorable."

Am I on;y in favor of killing the old, the weak, and the young? No. And I'm not going to be an hypocrite about it, either... there's a ton of big bucks around here, and I've more often than not let pass smaller deer and does in favor of "The One" perchance ambling on by. And as for specifically targeting one animal and devoting one's attention to that critter alone, again - nothing wrong, in my opinion, but still it is the result of having time and resources that allow an individual to do that. Not needing to put meat in his family's belly allows a man the freedom of that type of pursuit.

So, as I started out saying, it's more that man's order of things has changed man, and the trickle-down naturally changes the world around him. Just my two cents with a few more thrown in for inflation...

[traditional beagle]

I probably wouldn't take much time to try to get him. It is almost like he made it this long and I will honor him with a long life in the wild if nature sees fit. But as he is gone, his genetics will live on and he will be replaced with another fine bull. Live goes on.

[Stone Knife]

I'm not waiting for no big trophy, if one comes along first I'll take it. We eat our deer i like a young doe or a year and a half old buck the best most of the time they will taste the best. If i have to i will just put more of them in the freezer to make up the difference.

[SCATTERSHOT]

Interesting philosophical question. Of course, a cow or young bull is better eating, but I don't know many who would pass up a real trophy if the opportunity presented itself.

[John Nail]

Didn't say I'd pass him up. Only that I wouldn't pass everything else up just to hunt him.

I believe a lot of folks would walk around the mature,old Doe that Sam took hunting from the ground with his selfbow to ogle the big racked buck that Clem shot with his compound from 30' up a tree.
Human nature?

[AZStickman]

If I have a Bull tag and,if the herd Bull offers me the first clear broadside shot at 20 yards an arrow is flying....... If I have a Bull tag and, if a spike offers me the first broadside shot at 20 yards an arrow is flying....... I'm a trophy hunter by opportunity not choice...... I passed up my first shot ever in 36 years of hunting at a spike and a raghorn Bull on opening day a few years back......I had numerous shot opportunities in a half hour period as I watched them from my tree stand but I had been listening to the Herd Bull and a bunch of satellites all night long and even as the two Bulls in front of me played in the water the herd passed within 100 yards headed for the bedding area. I just knew I was going to tag a nice branch antlered Bull....... 10 days later I went home tag in pocket wishing I'd taken a shot at either of those Bulls........ I was telling the story to a friend who owns a local archery shop and he told me "You learned the golden rule didn't you?"..... "What's that?" I asked....... "Don't pass on the first day what you'd be happy with on the last." he replied....... I live by those words these days......... Terry

[John Nail]

"Don't pass on the first day what you'd be happy with on the last."

Well said.

[AZStickman]

Just thought I'd add....... The term Herd Bull is really relative to the time of season and doesn't always equate to the biggest or baddest Bull in the woods...... In early September the Big boys are more than content to let the satellite type Bulls round up the girls..... They will stop by to scent check them as the time for estrus gets close ........ When the cows show they are coming into heat the Big boy will kick the satellite out with out as much as a thank you and take over the herd, but as the season progresses and more cows come into estrus he sometimes will run himself ragged trying to keep up with chasing off the satellites and breeding the cows to the point he becomes wore out enough for a satellite to whip up on him and take over the herd......Many times the biggest baddest,herd bulls go into winter very weak and die off..... Terry

[AZStickman]

John....One of the things I love about hunting is no matter how much time I spend out in the woods there's still lessons to be learned.....That's what keeps it fresh and exciting....... Terry

[Sneakypete]

Good thread. I celebrate that fact that hunters with differing views on "ethical" topics can express those views without feeling they need to piss on one another. I know of no other hunting webiste other than tradgang that can boast that level of intelligence and decency. While I absolutely agree with JN, I clearly see AZS's p.o.v. For years now, having hunted and killed elk for 26 years and passed through my own private trophy quest (no need to explore the motives for trophy-urge here) with limited success, I've boasted of myself as a "trophy meat hunter." And that's mostly true inre the animals I finally kill. But I freely admit that, heck, big bugling bulls are what make bowhunting for elk in rut the special magic it is. Without those magical bugles and grunts and that wonderful bull-stench, well elk hunting would just be hunting big deer. So I continue to struggle, after all these years, to separate the bull-enticement that makes elk hunting the inimitable experience it is, from the final kill, which I prefer to do for meat quality and herd balance. Living up to our best expectations of ourselves is never easy and rarely entirely possible. But even just to be able to talk about it like this, honestly and gentlemanly, is a gift. Thank you.

[Jerry Jeffer]

I wouldn't pass him up if I had the shot, but I'll take what I can get. Any harvest is a bonus for me. I can't eat the bones, and old guys do have tough meat. So, I'm not out specifically for the biggest.

[Barney]

I'd say, if you're happy with a cow, buy a cow tag. If you have an either sex tag, shoot what makes "you" happy. If you have a hard to draw tag for a trophy unit, which is why you put in for it in the first place, don't shoot the first thing that walks by.

I don't need big antlers to make me happy, just being there and doing it does it for me.

On a side note, I guess, that old lead cow or old doe ain't always the easiest either.    

[Orion]

When I first started hunting elk about 25 years ago, I passed on a lot of cows and spikes, holding off for bigger bulls.  I usually went home with my tag in my pocket.  My goal is still to kill a mature representative of the species, whatever it happens to be, but I'm much less likely to pass a good shot at a cow or small bull now. Too many times, what I passed on the first day wasn't around on the last.  Would I shoot a herd bull if given the opportunity?  Yes.

[**DONOTDELETE**]

I've got 17 years into archery hunting elk...Taking the herd bull is tougher than it sounds....Oh i admitt that i've passed up quite a few skinny little spikes and cows while gazing at the massive royal bulls that refused to come in close enough with a call. i'm not a trophy hunter...never have been. When the frezzer is getting empty and we could use the meat, i'll take a cow with out blinking an eye. If there is a bull and a cow standing side by side....the bull gets the arrow....The cow is going to have little bull calves next spring one way or the other.

The most important thing is respecting the animals we hunt, and honoring our sport of archery by being conciensious hunters whether hunting for massive horns, or just needing freezer meat.

My true love is calling in those bulls....there is nothing more exciting than trying to keep your composure with a 1000 pound bull elk charging into 12 yards and tearing trees out by the roots right in front of you....Believe me you are not even thinking pope & young points when they get that close, you are thinking survival! I had one so close one time ....i felt his breath on the back of my neck before i even saw him...TOO CLOSE!!!!    i'll bet it took twenty minutes to get my heart rate down....Did i make a conscious decision on whether to shoot him or not? Not on your life!....i dropped my bow and grabbed my knife as i dove out of the way...while sreaming at the top of my lungs....i though i bought the farm on that one guys....What a rush!!! when he high tailed it the other direction i finally saw the rack....definately one of the largest bulls i've ecer encountered.....and he came in silent....Now that was a sucsessful hunt!