3Rivers Archery



The Trad Gang Digital Market













Contribute to Trad Gang and Access the Classifieds!

Become a Trad Gang Sponsor!

Traditional Archery for Bowhunters






LEFT HAND BOWS CLASSIFIEDS TRAD GANG CLASSIFIEDS ACCESS RIGHT HAND BOWS CLASSIFIEDS


Author Topic: Any Theories?  (Read 891 times)

Offline elknut1

  • Trad Bowhunter
  • **
  • Posts: 264
Re: Any Theories?
« Reply #20 on: November 11, 2009, 09:09:00 AM »
Jonathan, nice buck for sure! I hear ya on the "whew" once he was found! (grin)

  Things to consider are definitely arrow wt for head being used, more importantly is head wt & sharpness of broadhead this is where the ultimate penetration is stemming from!

  I shoot a longbow at 55# 27" draw like you do, tuning is important but not an end all so don't pull your hair out if you get a slight flip on release out of your arrow, you need reasonably good flight. I get a flip every time I shoot but it corrects itself after a few yards or so within reason.

  In your case putting a big Snuffer through a deer in the angle you mentioned would be very tough to do unless you hit a clear path all the way through, that head is big & can be restricted much easier than a smaller head.
  If I were shooting that big head I would opt for more arrow wt closer to the 580-600grn mark, more importantly I would want 200grns min up front & razor sharp, this is where more penetration can be had. Don't be too concerned with pass-throughs, if you get one great, but it's not needed in most cases with a razored head carving things up while still in the animal.

  Now if I chose a smaller head such as the SnufferSS in 3-blade or a 2-blade with bleeders I then would opt for an arrow wt of no less than 500grns but still have the 200grn wt up front. This is what I've been shooting the last couple of years. (thanks OL)

  Keep one thing in mind when building an arrow. What are you hunting & what are you using for a head? Build your arrow accordingly, too, you will receive no penetration difference until you have aprox a 75-100grn difference in jump if you just add the wt throughout the arrow, but add that wt to the head area & now you've accomplished something! This is where the tuning comes in to get the right spine arrow for the desired head wt.

  As an example I've shot the SnufferSS in 125 grn with a 75grn grn brass insert for 200grn head wt with an mfx beman yet my total arrow wt is 500grns I've taken 2 animals with this setup, one a 6-point bull elk at 18yds & the 2nd a mule deer buck in the 250-270# range at 32yds both were pass throughs. I took a 2nd 6-point bull with the same arrow wt of aprox 500grn with the same SnufferSS head on a 2018 aluminum. That arrow buried to the feathers as it stuck hard into the off shoulder, he was quartering to me.
   My point is I'm getting plenty of penetration with this setup. If I were to use a big ole Snuffer head I would have to up that arrow wt a 100grns to push that big head in. 50grns more would not be enough, as your results would be minimal in the testing I've done! Good Luck!

  ElkNut1

Offline shakeyslim

  • Trad Bowhunter
  • **
  • Posts: 211
Re: Any Theories?
« Reply #21 on: November 11, 2009, 09:15:00 AM »
personally i like heavy arrow weight with 2 blades(snuffer 3 blades yes?)
a hippie taught me to hunt
i left 1971 way back in 1971

Offline Terry Green

  • Administrator
  • Trad Bowhunter
  • ****
  • Posts: 28640
Re: Any Theories?
« Reply #22 on: November 11, 2009, 09:17:00 AM »
Yep...a little more arrow weight would help.  Hieght of stand not a problem...angle not a problem....done that plenty of times and blown through them with 4 blade Zwickey Deltas....but with 500 grain plus arrows.


Congrats BTW!!!!!!!  :clapper:
Tradbowhunting Video Store - https://digitalstore.tradgang.com/

Tradgang Bowhunting Merchandise - https://tradgang.creator-spring.com/?

Tradgang DVD - https://www.tradgang.com/tgstore/index.html

"It's important,  when going after a goal, to never lose sight of the integrity of the journey" - Andy Garcia

'An anchor point is not a destination, its  an evolution to conclusion'

Offline GMMAT

  • Trad Bowhunter
  • **
  • Posts: 997
Re: Any Theories?
« Reply #23 on: November 11, 2009, 10:33:00 AM »
I'm also wondering if your deer wasn't qtring away slightly....or if it spun on the shot.  Hitting that off-side shoulder from the interior would kill penetration.....but would also be extremely lethal (on that path).

I'm shooting a heavier arrow than you (by 75gr.).  I've had 3 complete pass-thrus.  I don't know that much about traditional archery.....but my personal opinion is that your arrow weight (while not 'optimal') is sufficient.

Good luck to you as your season progresses.

Offline BowMIke

  • Trad Bowhunter
  • Posts: 839
Re: Any Theories?
« Reply #24 on: November 11, 2009, 10:45:00 AM »
Jonathan,
You might try a 29" Beman MFX Classic 500 with 100 grain brass insert. Should weigh 525 grains with a 125 grain tip and shoot well from your set up.
Works well for me in similar set ups.

Nice  Deer. Glad you found him!

Online MnFn

  • Contributing Member
  • Trad Bowhunter
  • ****
  • Posts: 2966
Re: Any Theories?
« Reply #25 on: November 11, 2009, 11:08:00 AM »
Congratulations! This 100 grn snuffer was shot out of a 55# Kota recurve, arrow was a Carbon Express heritage with a 100 grn brass insert, so I think the weight was slightly over 500 grns. I failed in putting the arrow where it needed to be. I hit bone at close range. Penetration was about a 1/2 to 3/4".
I wish I had seen an earlier post where someone had recommended the smaller snuffers be used for small game only. Perhaps my results would have been the same with any broadhead, but I would like my broadheads to hold up better than this.
 
"By the looks of his footprint he must be a big fella"  Marge Gunderson (Fargo)
 
"Ain't no rock going to take my place". Luke 19:40

Offline Earl Jeff

  • Trad Bowhunter
  • **
  • Posts: 858
Re: Any Theories?
« Reply #26 on: November 11, 2009, 11:27:00 AM »
Shot this bear with a 125gr Snuffer w/75gr steel insert. Easton ACC 390 arrow total weight was 525gr out of a 54# big river longbow, I was 20' up a tree @ 15 yards. I had to pull the arrow out of a tree root . Bear went 30 yards.

Offline Terry Green

  • Administrator
  • Trad Bowhunter
  • ****
  • Posts: 28640
Re: Any Theories?
« Reply #27 on: November 11, 2009, 03:21:00 PM »
MnFn,

100 grain Snuffers are toys compared to the 140s and 160s.

Also, don't mean this as a slam...but that head would have probably held up if you had put it where it belonged.....work on your shooting abilities and you'll have less problems overall.

There's so much chat on here about this head and that head....this head vs that head....when there really should be much more chat on accuracy...and folks worried more about their shooting than what head.....and what ever head they choose they should be worried about how sharp it is.

Its aint the head, the arrow, or the bow.....its the indian.   :thumbsup:
Tradbowhunting Video Store - https://digitalstore.tradgang.com/

Tradgang Bowhunting Merchandise - https://tradgang.creator-spring.com/?

Tradgang DVD - https://www.tradgang.com/tgstore/index.html

"It's important,  when going after a goal, to never lose sight of the integrity of the journey" - Andy Garcia

'An anchor point is not a destination, its  an evolution to conclusion'

Offline leatherneck

  • Trad Bowhunter
  • **
  • Posts: 3728
Re: Any Theories?
« Reply #28 on: November 11, 2009, 03:33:00 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Terry Green:
MnFn,

100 grain Snuffers are toys compared to the 140s and 160s.


Its aint the head, the arrow, or the bow.....its the indian.    :thumbsup:  
Boy, that statement is so true, so true. Well said Terry.
“I can accept failure, everyone fails at something. But I can’t accept not trying"

Proud shareholder of MK,LLC

Offline Wannabe1

  • TGMM Member
  • Trad Bowhunter
  • ***
  • Posts: 6807
  • TGMM Family of the Bow
Re: Any Theories?
« Reply #29 on: November 11, 2009, 03:53:00 PM »
Congratulations on a fine deer and recovery. Lots of good help here and even I learned a thing or two!   :thumbsup:
Desert Shield/Storm, Somalia and IOF Veteran
"The Mountains are calling and, I must go!" John Muir

Offline Plumber

  • Trad Bowhunter
  • **
  • Posts: 1134
Re: Any Theories?
« Reply #30 on: November 11, 2009, 04:30:00 PM »
I shoot a two blade stinger.total arrow weight is 495gr I never get a pass through.the shots are good.I always get my deer BUT you better keep your eye on them an watch where they go.you may not see blood for 30-40 yds.my bow is slow.It maybe shoots 160-165fps but who cares.I get the job done.Iam sure I will get a pass through on some shots.but  bone will slow it down .even a rib can slow it down.however I hear guys gettin pass throughs with 35-40 lb bows. I do get good penitration' just not clean pass throughs.I have hunted lower to the ground this year.Iam shocked just how low you can get away with.you just gotta move a little slower. an try to be ready sooner. keep your eyes pealed. get lower

Offline Straitshot

  • Trad Bowhunter
  • **
  • Posts: 496
Re: Any Theories?
« Reply #31 on: November 11, 2009, 05:41:00 PM »
A number of years ago I read something about it taking more kinetic energy for an arrow to penetrate well into a deer from an elevated position as it does from being shot on the same plane with the deer. I have never seen or read anything else about it so I have no idea if it is correct or not. I have no knowledge of how kinetic energy is affected by differing elevations, if at all, so I can't attest to the validity of what I read. I can't remember where it was that I read it, but it seems as though it was in an archery magizine several years ago.

Then again, at my age maybe I just imagined I read it.

Louis
A man's true measure is not found in what he says, but in what he does.

Offline sleepingbear

  • Trad Bowhunter
  • **
  • Posts: 61
Re: Any Theories?
« Reply #32 on: November 11, 2009, 05:48:00 PM »
light poundage.  Try shooting a zwicky 125 2 blade.  How is arrow flight with the snuffer?

Offline GMMAT

  • Trad Bowhunter
  • **
  • Posts: 997
Re: Any Theories?
« Reply #33 on: November 11, 2009, 05:50:00 PM »
Think about it this way, strait....

How thick is a deer (think shooting at ground level)?  Now....how DEEP is a deer (when shot from above)?

Which path is eaiser?

Makes a diff. (I'm aware) what your arrow encounters on its' path.  But the concept doesn't seem foreign.

Offline longbow fanatic 1

  • Trad Bowhunter
  • **
  • Posts: 2312
Re: Any Theories?
« Reply #34 on: November 11, 2009, 05:54:00 PM »
Beautiful buck. I am no help on the penetration issue, as I am new to Trad hunting. Congrats!

Offline lt-m-grow

  • Trad Bowhunter
  • **
  • Posts: 1252
Re: Any Theories?
« Reply #35 on: November 11, 2009, 06:30:00 PM »
Nice buck btw:

But Terry, I don't totally agree with your comment regarding accuracy and broadheads.  Clearly accuracy is important, but there are many reasons for a poor short location that goes beyond the initial accuracy at the release.  

Reasons include adrenaline, deflection, or the animal moves either jumping the sting or just decides to move at the wrong time.  On the later two, just watch the outhouse channel some and you will notice that many times the deer moves some before impact.  You cannot do much about that.

So in hunting situations, the debate regarding the value of what one broadhead may do over others when the location is not perfect is important too.

Online twigflicker

  • TGMM Member
  • Trad Bowhunter
  • ***
  • Posts: 513
Re: Any Theories?
« Reply #36 on: November 11, 2009, 07:57:00 PM »
Some questions as to tuning...

I've tuned as best as I can (bareshaft, fletched and broadheads)... the arrows fly great and I've never had any issues getting the snuffer to fly out of anything...

Some great thoughts... I know it's mostly speculation but was curious to hear of others experiences...

Thanks!

Jonathan
TGMM - Family of the Bow
PBS Associate

Offline Terry Green

  • Administrator
  • Trad Bowhunter
  • ****
  • Posts: 28640
Re: Any Theories?
« Reply #37 on: November 11, 2009, 08:32:00 PM »
lt-m-grow,

Exactly!....and I prepare for the highest percentage of the worse case scenario....which is most hits are too far back.  That's why I like big heads as hits too far back are easy to blow through, and I want to cut the widest channel I can, and most times with multiblades.  This give s me the best chance on again, the highest percentage of the worst case scenario, to lacerate the liver/diaphragm/one or two lungs vs just nicking them.  And, you need to be able to hit the vitals consistently if they don't move or your pissing in the wind no matter what head you choose and rolling the dice.

You need to control to the best of your abilities what you CAN control...an prepare for what you can't control.

It all starts with accuracy.  Don't sell that short!!!      :thumbsup:
Tradbowhunting Video Store - https://digitalstore.tradgang.com/

Tradgang Bowhunting Merchandise - https://tradgang.creator-spring.com/?

Tradgang DVD - https://www.tradgang.com/tgstore/index.html

"It's important,  when going after a goal, to never lose sight of the integrity of the journey" - Andy Garcia

'An anchor point is not a destination, its  an evolution to conclusion'

Online dnovo

  • Contributing Member
  • Trad Bowhunter
  • ****
  • Posts: 1825
Re: Any Theories?
« Reply #38 on: November 11, 2009, 08:37:00 PM »
I have to go with Terry on this. On the ones I have had problems with it has always been location. I have never had a broadhead fail me, but I have failed by putting it in the wrong spot at times. I like to stay moderate in arrow weight which to me is 10 grn/lb and never have a problem.
PBS regular
UBM life member
Compton

Offline wtpops

  • TGMM Member
  • Trad Bowhunter
  • ***
  • Posts: 2323
Re: Any Theories?
« Reply #39 on: November 12, 2009, 11:19:00 AM »
Just an idea. You are at about 8 gpp, try getting your arrow up to at least 10 gpp 520 grains or even 11 gpp 575 grains and see what happens. Your broad head is a good choise and i think with some weight behing it it wont stop.

I know deer are not any thing like hogs but with a 575 to 600 grain arrow (im right at 58#)i can get through both sides of a good sized hog 9 times out of 10.
TGMM Family of the Bow
"OVERTHINKING" The art of creating problems that weren't even there!

Users currently browsing this topic:

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.
 

Contact Us | Trad Gang.com © | User Agreement

Copyright 2003 thru 2024 ~ Trad Gang.com ©