Button Bucks

[K. Mogensen]

I wasn't trying to beat on anybody who shoots button bucks, I'm just saying that I probably wouldn't do it. I did however, forget to take into account that you can't always tell if it's a button buck or a doe.

[non-typical]

Tom,

we're intrested in increasing our doe population around here,not the buck population. Last year the mature herd got devistated by hemorragic fever and our numbers are down by 2/3. When the deer yard up in Jan/Feb we used to see 60 deer of an evening...last year the most we saw was 19. Coupled with the fever issue our neighbor to the west allowed his 2 friends from the big city to take 14 deer 2 years ago and 17 last year during firearms season....all but a couple were does. When he mentioned that the numbers were down it opened the door for a good discussion of the issue. With the amount of cover we have in the area our big bucks seem to survive, that coupled with the antler restrictions has the buck side of the population doing well, whereas the doe numbers are down. Shooting a button buck or two for meat instead of a doe is just good management.

[larry]

seems to me it's all a matter of perspective and the land you're hunting. I own and hunt 50 acres, that has at best two doe groups on it. I'd rather take a button buck before I take a doe... I like to keep the does there, to draw in the bucks.

[jcar315]

Sounds like some "trigger finger management" is needed IMO. In PA where we had some mountain land the local biologist said to take 1 (maybe 2) does for every 100 acres. Alot depends on how fertile your ground is but taking that many does seems kind of high.

We are all stuck with our neighbors for better or for worse. If you are bordered by someone who shoots anything that walks that will have a major impact on your hunting. With "if it's brown it's down" for a neighbor you won't be able to do a thing to impact "your" deer.

Shooting button bucks instead of does?!

The word "management" seems to get thrown around quite a bit.

Can't tell a button buck from a doe at less than 20 yards?!

Not "hating" on anyone...if you want to shoot any deer that happens by be my guest. Just please don't try to rationalize it as "management."

[non-typical]

Jcar, define management for me will you and tell me how each of us as we impact a resource is not a steward of the land we use and meat we harvest.

[K. Mogensen]

Good points jcar.

The reason I mentioned not telling the difference was because my dad and I hunt the rifle season, and buck only. My dad shoots a rifle, I shoot a bow. Yeah, I know, it's a sucky set up but I live with it. Anyway, we spot deer at 200+ yards average, if it doesn't have a horn, than we pass it by. In the area we hunt, stand hunting is almost impossible. We walk around until we see a group of deer, when we do, we check for antlers, if we don't see one, we move on. You would never be able to tell the difference from that range. Just my reasoning. But your right, when a group walks in at 50 yards, it's pretty easy to tell the difference.

[Gatekeeper]

Originally posted by non-typical:
Tom,

we're intrested in increasing our doe population around here,not the buck population. Last year the mature herd got devistated by hemorragic fever and our numbers are down by 2/3. When the deer yard up in Jan/Feb we used to see 60 deer of an evening...last year the most we saw was 19. Coupled with the fever issue our neighbor to the west allowed his 2 friends from the big city to take 14 deer 2 years ago and 17 last year during firearms season....all but a couple were does. When he mentioned that the numbers were down it opened the door for a good discussion of the issue. With the amount of cover we have in the area our big bucks seem to survive, that coupled with the antler restrictions has the buck side of the population doing well, whereas the doe numbers are down. Shooting a button buck or two for meat instead of a doe is just good management.

If you are trying to increase the herd population around you, then protecting the does is the right thing to do. I hope you and your neighbor can come to a happy medium to improve the herd around you. I live in an area where the conservation department considers a dead doe to be a good doe.

The deer herd around us is a conservation success story run amuck.  How has your season be this year? Good I hope    

[Richie Nell]

Non-typical....Respectfully, your deer program is seriously, ginormously not going in the right direction to meet your goals.

Need more does? Harvest fewer total BUT only fawns and yearlings

Need more bucks? Never harvest button heads

Need fewer bucks? Hunt harder and harvest ONLY older ones and never shoot younger ones

Don't want any bucks? Harvest buck fawns

Don't want any does? Don't harvest any and allow disease to UNselectively manage for you. STUPID idea.

Two things are sure to naturally occur in an unhunted (man, cats or canines) and unmanaged deer population...
More does mainly due to less natural mortality and less bucks due to HIGH natural mortality (many means of buck death).

Sal....
You are already sounding defensive.  Defensive usually means guilt.  I personally think it should in your case.

Since when does a "true hunter" want to harvest a young buck instead of a young doe?  I do agree the young tastes the best....so harvest the young does.  There are plenty of them and not so plenty young bucks.  What a waste.

Wild predators are not sex selective but yes they do like the young ones because they are easy prey...ignorant and slow.  
I think that a more sophisticated predator would be more selective than a coyote or lion and ponder the future of our prey items before preying.

[larry]

Richie, I'm not sure you should be so quick to jump on Sal. Is there really a difference between a yearling doe and a yearling buck other than future antlers to hang on your wall? if you grilled up a couple of backstaps of each, I doubt you would know the difference.

[non-typical]

Richie,

respectfully back at you, harvesting younger females and a button buck is what we have been doing which parallells your claims.

[Richie Nell]

larry,
Sure, I know for a fact that they would taste the same.  
I am referring to the taking of young bucks out of the herd versus taking young does out.  More sense is made by taking the doe.
I thought that "managing" was the underlying thought here.  
If he wasn't referring to that please except my apology.

[Richie Nell]

Harvesting the young does will allow the residual population of mature does to produce more deer.

"and a button buck"  What do you mean?

Are you minimizing the young buck harvest or  intentionally taking the button heads at will?

[jcar315]

Managers: We all have worked for and with some good ones....and we all have worked for some who didn't know which way was up but somehow had the title "manager" after their name.

[**DONOTDELETE**]

Originally posted by Richie Nell:

Sal....
You are already sounding defensive.  Defensive usually means guilt.  I personally think it should in your case.

Guilt of what? Already saying I shoot 1 or 2 BB's a year???
 

Originally posted by mysticguido:

I'll shoot one or two a year if they give me a broadside shot.

In the wild a true hunter will take the young ones. I feel it is just a part of nature to do so. This doesn't make me a bad hunter and if ANYONE thinks it does, O-well.. It doesn't.

Just because You don't, Don't try and tell me how to hunt and what to take. I am a Hunter, I hunt for Meat, The Young ones are the best eating.[/QB]

Then Yes, Because I have and I even said I have. When I lived in New Jersey where I did most of my hunting in a area that was over run with deer, You had to do it. It was way better to take out some young ones and eat the meat, Then have them hit by cars and waist the meat.

Different areas of New jersey would have so many deer you couldn't count them, When other areas you might see one deer a year.

I live in Texas (Again) now, So I may not ever shoot another BB. But I do feel that sometime You should and that it's OK to.

Why is it every time this subject comes Up some feel that how someone hunts is bad? I don't hunt deer just for the size of a bucks rack. I also don't tell the ones that do, If You shoot only bucks your doing nothing but hurting the heard.

But Richie, I would like to know what You meant by what You said... Please PM  me about what you meant by it...

[Brian Krebs]

Gatekeeper
 You said:

[QB] Button bucks are the current year’s fawns. They’re not late fawns and they’re not genetically inferior they’re simply 6 months old.

 I agree that they are this years fawns; but I am not so sure about them not being late fawns. Surely if bucks are breeding into March; the fawns will be born later.. ?

 Then too; I have not seen fork horn deer; or younger deer hold onto their antlers as long as really big bucks. Antler score aside; if a big deer makes it through the gauntlet of fall and winter- wouldn't his 'genetic genius' be more valuable to a wild herd ?

 Where I have hunted; buck fawns can be seen with spikes; and small forks ... I was thinking these were early bred and born bucks....

 I am willing to be wrong; but ... am I ?

[Trab]

I agree with you guys who are saying it is wiser to take a Doe rather than a Button Buck.....I just don't think enough emphasis is being put on the fact that most Buttons are being taken while being MISTAKEN for a doe.....
I don't know about everyone else's vision, or ability to identify critters........and I'm definitely a greenhorn compared to most every one of you guys............but from the 18 yards that I just shot my first Trad Kill, (yup, a Button)  I was under the distinct impression I WAS shooting a Doe....the little lady says with that kind of confusion I oughtta look under the covers before  bed at night just to be sure a things .......quit laughing Y'all show some respect .....LOL   .javascript:void(0) javascript:void(0)

...........by the way, lets call a spade a spade...this wasn't just my first Trad Kill, it was my first any method kill......  LOL....put the fork down for a second boys and and raise your beers !!

[Don Stokes]

Non-typical, the fact that you had a big die-off caused by disease is the surest evidence that you had too many deer. Usually that means too many does. Your neighbors may have done you a favor by thinning them down- too bad they didn't do it before the disease (Nature's way) took hold.

The way to prevent it from happening again is to shoot as many does as bucks. As Richie mentioned, bucks have a higher natural mortality rate, and if you shoot does and bucks equally, you will still have more does than bucks. Personally, I'd rather shoot mature bucks than buttons, but to each his own. I'll shoot a button when my freezer's empty, but not when I have meat- at least, not on purpose.

You can make lemonade from the lemons you've been dealt. With the population down, you have a chance to get a better balance of sexes, and you should see bigger bucks regardless, because they now have more and better food due to less competition for the better food sources. With more bucks, the rut will be more concentrated and the older bucks will be forced to move more to breed. Win-win!

If you did have an EHD outbreak, it will have affected more than just your farm, and a whole region will have fewer deer. From what I've seen of Missouri deer populations, that will be a good thing! You don't want disease to do the culling. A well-placed arrow or bullet is a much nicer way to die.

The area I hunt, between Lamar and Nevada, must have about a 20:1 ratio. It's not unusual to see 20 or more deer in an outing. I expect disease to take hold there at any time. Meanwhile, I'm enjoying good doe venison, and encouraging my hunting partners to shoot those does!

[onewhohasfun]

Antlered and anterless deer practices make as much sense as trying to sex a fish. Can't speak for all states, but here in MI a total lack of one segment of the deer heard is not right. MATURE BUCKS! When only 5 out of 100 bucks born live to be mature, (4 1/2 yrs.) something is wrong with this picture. Don't accuse me of horn porn, cause I don't care if he only scores 85" P&Y. A balanced heard should be the goal. Someone please rationalize for me  a total lack of 4 1/2 and older bucks is a good thing, cause I don't get it! Don't you want to see the best that mother nature has to offer, I sure do! Every time this comes up on here you get accused of being a horn porn trophy hunter,yet the Wensels are worshipped on here, are they wrong ? I don't think so. I beleive they have it right. Tom

[buckeye_hunter]

The following is a quote from a deer biologist at QDMA

When I asked Brian Murphy, executive director of the Quality Deer Management Association in Watkinsville, Georgia what's QDMA's position was on button bucks, he answered, "Our organization promotes managing for healthy deer herds, which promotes the growth of larger and older bucks. To have a quality deer herd in many sections of the country, you have to remove a certain number of does off the property every year. If you remove does every year, some of your hunters will inadvertently shoot button bucks, believing them to be does.

"We believe any penalty that discourages hunters from taking does in areas where does need to be removed to have a healthy deer herd is not a good idea. As long as the hunters who hunt a specific piece of property keep the button buck harvest to 10 percent or less of their antlerless harvest, they don't need to be concerned about taking button bucks."


Not my thoughts just a quote I thought might help th discussion....
-Charlie

[Richie Nell]

Onewhohasfun,
The lack of mature bucks is a result of natural mortality and artificial mortality by killing way too many when they are young.