Button Bucks

[Richie Nell]

Chuck,
Correct...I understand what you are saying. I am not referring to the extreme cases like what you have mentioned.  Those cases would require a totally different approach.  
If you know extreme weather conditions are gonna take a significant number of deer each year then why would you increase the mortality rate with hunting those vulnerable deer?  How could you have a huntable population in future years?

The success I am referring to is within deer populations that are high, low health quality and sex ratios way out of balance.  

The majority of the 120+ hunting clubs that I managed had too many does and too few bucks for the area.  The goal was to maximize the potential health of the herd and have older, quality antlered bucks to harvest.  
Basically, the health indicators were fawn production in does and good antler growth and body weights for bucks(for its age class).

Before the program began, one club in particlar shot every buck they saw until the reigns tightened on them.  The mentality of these hunters was summed up in one statement made by the club president as we looked at a spike in his truck...and I quote "How do you think it feels to tell your co-worker that you only killed three bucks this year?"
My work was cut out for me.

The club was limited on the number of total bucks they harvested and they had to be G-2 or better.
The next year, after one year of passing the yearling bucks they could not believe how many
bucks they would see with antlers.  They had no idea what bucks actually did in the wild.  They had never watched them.  They began videoing deer and enjoying the hunt much better.  They also harvested more and more 3.5+ year old bucks with nice antlers, not to mention plenty of does.

The end result of the program was significant increase in body weights, antler growth, fawn production, age structure and a lot more stinkin family fun.  
That is an, in a nutshell, example of successful deer management in the south.
 
Bucks must live and does must die.

[ChuckC]

I gotcha, I hearya.  Just saying that there are lots of reasons to shoot a BB, including having no concern at all for seeing a 150" buck.

Heck,  I live and hunt in the SW WI CWD zone.  They found CWD here several years ago and it changed everything.  Right now they have gun seasons going for half, maybe more, of the bow season,  tags are free and unlimited, caveat   I have to shoot an antlerless deer before a buck.  Any antlerless deer.

I hunt public ground and in the first SEVEN hunts I never saw a deer.  Normally I see deer every sit and get a shoot opportunity (not necessarily taking a shot) every second sit.  And I saw NO DEER for seven hunts.  Counting the two times I went out with a gun I hunted the area ten times (it is my "favorite. .  go to spot", I scout it all year and have multiple stand sites chosen well in advance) and I saw a (one) doe.  period.  

I have to shoot an antlerless deer to even have the blessings of the DNR to hunt bucks.  Am I gonna shoot a BB if I see one ?

HECK YES !  

A great many folks are not real happy with our DNR currently as it seems many many folks are not seeing deer and the blame is being placed on everything except that there are fewer deer around.

ChuckC

[Richie Nell]

Chuck, that sounds like a government job problem and there are plenty of those to go around.

Here in Alabama, the buck limit the last two years has been three per year with one having four pts. on one side.  That is good.  

The bad part is since Noah and the flood, the bag limit was any buck being legal.  Any antler above the hairline and any antlerless buck.  ONE PER DAY for over 100 days of hunting.  A liberal doe limit as well.

Timber is the largest industry in Alabama and the only reason that all the bucks weren't killed to extinction was the massive, extensive and traumatic habitat changes that occurred by timber companies clearcutting land...NOT the Alabama Dept. of Wildlife like they want us all to believe.

My point is this....99% people ,in Alabama anyway, have no idea who actually makes the game laws.  They think it is some well educated professors at the state colleges or biologists, etc.  It's not.  It is an adivory board made up of any Tom, Dick and Harriette that the Governor appoints.  They give the public a chance to voice opinions and then they make their political decisions on game laws. Extremely political.  

I have spoken with them many times.  The large majority of actual decision makers have no qualifications to do so and are very imcompetent.

I was on a wildlife committee with other biologists throughout the state to advise the advisory board on the deer hunting laws.  Another committee member was one of my professors. He was the deer research guru.  
He told me personally that there definitely needs to be a buck restricition in AL but if he says that in our official meeting the government will cut off his research funding.

Sure enough at the meeting he said "we need to just wait awhile and do more education."

That is how laws are made.  It is a crock.

That could be going on everywhere, I don't know.

[todd smith]

I've always tried to avoid shooting buttons, but it happens now and again.        

I guess it probably depends on the buck to doe ratio in a given area.  It makes sense to me that an optimum buck to doe ratio is the best tactic.

[the longbowkid]

button bucks are just very young male deer, some spikes are too, but some are just permanently cowhorns

[Bill Carlsen]

It seems to me that most of you who are responding live in very good deer states with plenty of agriculture and all the ingredients for good deer density and "selective" hunting. I shot a button buck this year...first deer I saw in range. It was the second week of our three month hunt. Until now I have only had one small doe since then under my stand. I let her go because the deer numbers are down for some reason and my thinking is that the does need to be able to make more babies this spring. Given the choices between no deer, a button buck or a fawn doe, I would take the button buck. For me, a mature doe is safe simply because I want her to have two or three fawns in the spring. I have never seen such poor deer hunting as I have this year. In three months I think I have seen 15 or so deer total and only two close enough to shoot. I saw two antlered deer from my stand and both were out of range. Shooting button bucks is simply a choice and not a moral one either. Some of the comments I have seen from some of you clearly show a lack of knowledge of deer biology and social development. Button bucks simply will not be available in a given area the following year because mom is going to kick him out. I could go on and on on this subject but you folks who live in states where you can let animals walk because you have confidence that a "better" deer will show up, well, you just don't know how good you have it and I envy you. As for me, a button buck is a "good" deer and meets the state's requirements for an anterless deer and he takes up "good" space in my freezeer. For the rest of this year and maybe even into next season females of any size may get a pass from me. The deer herd where I hunt needs more deer of any kind and I am praying for a milder winter this year.

[woodchucker]

Originally posted by Richie Nell:
 
If you know extreme weather conditions are gonna take a significant number of deer each year then why would you increase the mortality rate with hunting those vulnerable deer?  How could you have a huntable population in future years?  

Isn't that the point??? You know that the winterkill/coyote problem is going to take out the majority of the fawn population..... Why would you NOT take these deer out of the equation by harvesting them????? You harvest them because they ARE vulnerable,leaving the available food for the stronger deer with the best chance of survival.

Sorry Richie,but it just doesn't make sense. I have hunted over 30 years here in the northeast,and seen winterkills and predation that would make your head spin!!!!! I've read everything that you have said,word for word. I have tried to comprehend it,but it just doesn't add up.

If you have a deer herd with 100 fawns. Hunters kill 50 and the winter/coyotes kill another 30,that leaves 20 fawns come spring.

If the hunters kill 50 adult does,and the winter/coyotes kill 70-80 fawns,you still only have 20-30 fawns come spring,and you have also taken 50 good strong adult does out of the population.....

Please explain to me how you are "helping" the deer herd by shooting the adult does and not the fawns?????  :confused:

[Don Stokes]

Richie, it's hard to argue against flawed logic. Keep up the good work! Everything you've said has made perfect sense to me. I studied wildlife management in college, and have tried to stay informed since then.

The fawns are the most susceptible to winter kill, so by not shooting them you will have more available to survive. If coyotes are the problem, shoot the coyotes!!

If a doe has a button fawn, yes she will drive it out of her home range when she comes into heat. That's nature's way of dispersing the gene pool and preventing inbreeding. Shoot the doe, and the button will stay home! Yesterday I saw a doe with twins on my place. I was hunting for meat with my muzzleloader, so I shot the doe. If one or both of those fawns was a button, he'll still be here next year. If I had shot him or his sister instead, he would be gone next year. What's hard to understand about that?

Deer can repopulate at an incredible rate. To just maintain herd size, you have to shoot or otherwise remove 40% of the herd. That means shooting lots of does. Otherwise it will keep growing until carrying capacity is exceeded, and then size and quality of all of the deer and their habitat go downhill. The habitat takes much longer to recover than the deer herd, so the changes can be essentially permanent.

The Malthusian solution is generally not very pleasant for the animals involved, or the people who witness it- disease, a boom in predator populations, high mortality from vehicle collisions (with associated higher insurance costs), low birth numbers and weight, smaller body sizes, high levels of parasite infestations, more deer ticks to spread Lime disease to humans... the list of potential problems goes on and on. Reducing the population of breeding does and shooting fewer bucks of all ages is the easiest way to keep things under control.

[LoweBow]

I won't shoot them and for people hunting my farms if they do shoot one it's considered their "buck" for the year on my farm....They can hunt elsewhere to kill their state buck, but just not on my place.  It makes most identify their target prior to shooting.  
I understnd that studies show that I'll never see that button as an adult (if left nature), but studies also show that when orphaned as a button (kill his Momma) and he'll stay there his entire life as Momma is not around to displace him.  That's why in my area and on my farms I ask all to shoot every doe they get an opportunity to harvest.  We are a 1 buck state, but my county is unlimited doe harvest.  I've yet to get a group of bowhunters together that could over harvest does and most are lucky to keep the population in check.

[Brian Krebs]

My late uncle ( Dan Robbins) who was steeped in the conservation movement from the fifties to his death; once spoke before the graduating class of Game Biologists at the University of Michigan.
 He came home really depressed; as he had asked if there were any hunters among them; and not one hand went up.

 Well; the surge in managing herds of deer for antler growth; and mature bucks has encouraged hunters to get into wildlife management. That is the good of it.

 But - there is a bad flip side; which we are seeing ... which is the goal of having big antlers; and not a herd of deer that are wild deer.

 Wild deer die if they make mistakes. Pen raised; or cultivated deer-- well they can be idiots and survive.

 I remember the days in Michigan; when people would apply for 'doe' tags; and get together and burn them on main street ( literally).
 I argued then that does needed to be harvested along with bucks.

 That though is not in conflict with having wild deer in the woods. Wild deer; surviving by wit - not by the whim of a management hunter.

 In the excitement of a bowhunt; ANY deer you can get a shot at is a thrill. If it has buttons or not.

 When it comes down to not shooting anything but mature bucks- well that is a personal decision.
 But when it becomes the ideology of hunting; I think it is a HUGE mistake.

 You notice here at the Tradgang - we are very happy to get a shot at a doe; and make it. We complement each other on it; because we know the effort it takes to master the bow; and to master our hunting skills.
 We too honor those the master their skills to the point of taking only mature bucks. Like the Wensels. We have learned so much from them - because they are hunting hard to get bucks that we all have a chance at: if we were just as smart and devoted as them.
 I don't believe though; that our goal as tradgangers is to only take mature bucks. We love hunting and taking a deer with trad gear; and that is the ultimate hunting experience.

 To let the dumb ones walk by us- to let them grow and become dumber and bigger; and then kill them ....... well I see that as bad management.

 And I am so happy to have taken trophy deer; and so happy to have taken Does.. when I hear people referring to taking a doe as a management action; and not as the animal it should be respected for- it just makes me realize that there is a cross in the road of game management.... and folks - we is at that crossroad.

 Every year here where I live; I see bowhunters; self included hunting deer; and rifle hunters out there capable of long shots trying to take deer; and then comes this time of year; and these monster up to 49 inch wide muledeer come walking down into the safety of no hunters. These are wild deer; and taking one is a great accomplishment.
 When I see tv land hunters pick from a herd of 50 bucks - the one that is most mature: and has retained all its tines - I am less impressed than when I see a guy take a Doe while really hunting.

 A button buck is a deer; and if you take one fair chase - good on ya. If you shoot a monster buck and 'kill off the does' to make it possible- well I am not flattered.

 I am glad we have more biologists that hunt; I just hope the goal becomes wild wise deer; and not ones you can walk out to and tape and decide whether or not to shoot.

 There is a beauty to the tradgang; in seeing a grown man or woman or a child holding up a deer taken with a traditional bow.
  Doesn't matter what the head gear is or isn't.

But there is a real ugliness about the balance of using a trad bow to take game - and breeding them to be so stupid that anyone can take one with whatever gear.

[LoweBow]

Brian...I'm missing your point I guess.....
"To let the dumb ones walk by us- to let them grow and become dumber and bigger; and then kill them ....... well I see that as bad management."

Are you saying that a any deer that walks by your tree should be harvested because they are "dumb"?  And therefore will be dumb their whole life?  
Anyone that spends any amount of time in the woods knows there is no dumber animal walking than a button buck, especially during the rut when he doesn't have the security of his Momma.  My son and I climbed out of stand during the 1st weekend of the KY modern fireams season this year and he laughed uncontrollably while throwing walnuts at the 2 button bucks that would not run away.
Shold we have waxed both of them as they'll just be dumber when they get older?

It's a simple rule of thumb w/ QDM...1st deer to enter a field will be a button..I find this true more than not.


In my area if a deer (buck or doe) lives to be 3.5 to 4.5 years old...it's a freakin genious!
Actually harvesting a buck that is 4.5 yo is as tough as anywhere in the world and I've yet to see that stupid one that just walks 10 yards past my stand, broadside, from downwind and  
stops w/ his front legs stretched forward, waitin on the arrow.

I'll never belittle anyone for taking one..ever.
The rules emplemented on my properties are to try to get the buck/doe ratio in order and help manage the number of deer.....period.

[Richie Nell]

woodchucker,
I appreciate your respnse.

I don't think I said anything about killing adult does in the quote regarding the extreme situation you are in.

If the winterkill and predation is as bad as you are saying, and I am sure it is, then maybe you do not have a "huntable" population.
"Huntable" as in a population that is viable enough that allows you to expect to have fawn recruitment each year and have and harvest older bucks .

If your hunting goals are to have older does to produce fawns so you can harvest the fawns each year and not want a buck population then you are right on track.

If your interested in growing and harvesting bucks older than 6 months then your chances decrease tremendously if you intentionally make them dead when they are 6 months old.

I am thinking in your situation, assuming you want to harvest older bucks someday, I would suggest not taking the fawns or fawn producers (does).  Harvest only the mature bucks that are ripe for the pickin until the herd numbers increase, if ever.  Normally mature bucks will take care of the bag limit situation themselves.  

Again, how can any deer herd thrive without fawn recruitment each year.  Your inventory has to be born in order to grow and get old.  If you kill them along with high natural predation then aren't you decreasing your chances of ever having older bucks?

[Brian Krebs]

Lowebow:
       In a way that is what I am saying.
"Are you saying that a any deer that walks by your tree should be harvested because they are "dumb"? And therefore will be dumb their whole life? "
 Not every arrow flies true; and not every arrow drawn can find the target still there.

 Used to be that deer lived in fear of predators; to very much include humans. If you are tossing acorns at deer- are you hunting on public land - with deer that are constantly aware of danger; or on private land - where death is a distant enemy?

[woodchucker]

Richie, If you haven't already done so,please go back and read my post on page 3. It explains alittle about the area that I hunt. (one of them anyway,I also hunt the "Big Woods" of the Adirondack Mountains,and used to hunt every year in Maine)

The deer herd up to my Dad's is "huntable" by Northeastern standards,meaning that the herd can be hunted without worry of decimating the population.(sometimes I wonder though) However,although there are a few huge "slammer" bucks taken every year,I really think that managing the herd up there for "QDM" is an exercise in futility. There are enough crops and food to sustain a good healthty deer herd during most of the year,but once the crops are harvested,and the snow dumps,and the coyotes start to pack up,the winter hits them HARD!!!!! Come spring,the deer yards look like bone yards. I am starting to think that most of the issue is a "North vs South" type of thing. Down south,where winters are mild and food is abundant,you have a starvation problem due to overpopulation. Here in the northeast where snow is measure in feet rather than inches,you have a severe winterkill problem and have trouble maintaining a healthy deer population,let alone a "quality" one.

Also, in your quote you said "If you know extreme weather conditions are gonna take a significant number of deer each year then why would you increase the mortality rate with hunting those vulnerable deer?" I took that as you saying that you should not shoot the fawns because they are vulnerable,and you should shoot the adult does. Did I misunderstand you,or was it possibly a typo on your part,or did I miss something??? Please explain what you meant.....

I'm basicly a High School flunky,who joined the Marines. I've been hunting a long time,and I know what I have seen with my own eyes. Yet,I try to be "well read" but when I read about deer management,and it doesn't add up to what I see and have seen with my own eyes,I question things.

Food for thought, Why are all of the big "QDM" managed game ranches down south??? Someone with enough money could easily buy a large chunk of land out in western N.Y. where the yearly "lake effect" snowfall averages to about 10 feet a year,but yet there are none. Everyone headed on the hunt of a lifetime Big Buck "Quest" always seems to head south or south mid-west??? Is it possibly because Mother Nature is not friendly to QDM???

Thanks Again for your input Richie!!!!!    

[Richie Nell]

woodchucker, (not sure how to do the quote thing yet) but.. you said...
"Also, in your quote you said "If you know extreme weather conditions are gonna take a significant number of deer each year then why would you increase the mortality rate with hunting those vulnerable deer?" I took that as you saying that you should not shoot the fawns because they are vulnerable,and you should shoot the adult does. Did I misunderstand you,or was it possibly a typo on your part,or did I miss something??? Please explain what you meant....."

To have a population of deer, they have to be born. Then they have to live and grow each year.  If not, then there will be huge age gaps or no deer at all.

Assuming you desire to have older deer on your land... if you already know there is going to be a large winterkill on the fawns then why would you intentionally increase the intensity of storm?  Instead of... not harvest any fawns, hope the winter is mild and increase the chances of more fawns becoming a year old, then two years old, then three.

If the natural mortality is 70% each year then I would rather have 30% survival out of 100 nonhunted fawns then 30% survival out of 50 fawns after 50 were harvested.  I would choose this because I would want as much fawn recruitment as possible.  Fawns living past 6 months is the X factor when it comes to having a viable ongoing population.      

Another thought about harvesting fawns.  Hunters are not selective like nature is.  Hunters are probably going to take the larger, stronger fawns leaving the later born, smaller fawns to die in the snow.  Then you have less total fawns come April than not killing any at all.

Again, I am only assuming there is a hope and desire to have a future deer herd.

[larry]

funny, I've never harvested a deer  in my life...killed a bunch of them hunting though.

[Buckeye Trad Hunter]

That's funny Larry    .  Seems I've hit a nerve with my question.

[bowmofo]

Did you not find them?

[larry]

sure I found them.

worked on a farm in my younger days, helped that farmer harvest a bunch of crops to.

[LoweBow]

Brian...
Yes..I hunt private ground.  Mostly on my 200a that is surrounded by heavily hunted and heavily preasured farms.  I do my best to have a low impact aproach to my hunting, but know during the gun season the surroundind properties shoot everything in sight.  We've taken 4 mature does, 1 doe fawn, and my 147" 9-point off my 200ac.  We plan to take another 5 does before season end.  These deer are high pressured no matter what I think, but I've hunted plenty of public ground and still found the fawn/button buck to be just as "dumb".
A 6 month old fawn has never experience the predator "man" and doesn't know how to react to them...how could they?  It's a learned response not genetic.  Mom is the one that is in charge of teaching this.  Just like us and our children.
Them old matriarch does that seem to be able to find you or look up in the tree and pick you off weren't born w/ a "look up in a tree" reflex...they learned it over a few years time and probably a close call or two.  
During the rut when Momma runs off her fawns it puts these little guys out marching endlessly thru the woods like their older brothers.  Many have never seen a hunter and have no fear...unless my son throws walnuts at them. LOL.  That's only one of the reasons their easy pickins.  Another is their natural curiosity...no different than a fox pup or a coon kit that comes in to check out a sound they've never heard before...doesn't make them "dumb", just kids.  No different than any other species that hasn't learned danger.