Button Bucks

[Richie Nell]

Oh..I'm sorry Larry....
I forgot who I was talking to.

[SteveB]

The herd has decent numbers around me but they still recieve a fair amount of pressure. While I did kill a couple BB early on, I make a concentrated effort not to do so now. Really not that hard since they are the dumbest thing in the woods and killing something that easy brings me no satisfaction.

In pre rut, they have had no exposure to predators(hunters) and carry themselves in a reckless way - typically 1st in the field, etc.
During rut, they are usually on their own and don't have a clue other then avoid anything with horns.

I enjoy hunting and killing, but want some challange. And around me, bb's don't give it.

Steve

[woodchucker]

Richie, I would think that if you had a high fawn mortality rate due to winterkill/predators,having more adult does to lead them during the winter,and also to have more fawns in the spring,would make more sense than killing a bread adult doe(loosing the doe and the 2 fawns she is carrying) and leaving the fawns to fend for themselves.(when they have less than a 50/50 chance of survival)

Also,you have yet to include your thoughts on the north/south, mild/hard winter question???

[ChuckC]

Actually,  when push comes to shove, the bucks that should be harvested,  if of course you truly want the herd to prosper,  are the bucks that are way past their prime.  What the QDM movement does is try to harvest the biggest and best bucks the herd has to offer, along with their genes.  

If you really really wanted to help the herd,  let them walk until they start to lose their prime,  until they are too old to compete in the rut game, then there will be others to take their place,  the new biggest and best.

Right now I don't see QDM as currently espoused, as helping the herd, only the hunter to get his picture in the paper.

My opinion
ChuckC

[Richie Nell]

Woodchucker,
Yes I agree with you about not shooting the does, bred or not.  If I am not mistaken I haven't been in favor of killing any does in the prrevious posts for your extreme weather situation.

Regarding QDMA and weather, I think there are several factors involved as to why QDMA may not be as common in the north.
Weather, shorter hunting seasons, more restrictions on hunting, and lower populations in some areas.  I personally think that the main reason is that there already tends to be bigger bucks in the north.
In the past the south typically had smaller deer and more of them and are still smaller on average than the north.
Quality Deer Management is just that...managing for quality deer rather than trophy deer.  In the south, "quality" is a much more achievable goal than "trophy" as compared to the north.  So the QDMA began.  
QDMA also has to do with hunters having a quality hunt whether you harvest, shoot, kill, destroy, make dead, etc. a deer or not.  It is about growing and enjoying a healthy deer herd.
That is important in the high populations of the South.
The south has a lot more inventory to work with and longer seasons to implement the program, longer growing seasons to grow food for deer, etc.

[Richie Nell]

Chuck,
You are right.
I totally agree with you about harvesting the most mature deer you got.
I have always had the philosophy of taking from the top and allowing other bucks a chance to reach the top.

[larry]

Aw, that's ok Richie, long thread like this that can happen sometimes  :D

[Richie Nell]

kill, kill, kill      

Maybe its the southern accent...that I don't have.

[larry]

   

[Richie Nell]

Maybe if I get to harvest,  kill, kill him first.

[woodchucker]

Thanks Richie!!!!! That was kinda along my way of thinking.....

Here in N.Y. we have a vast asortment of habitat. Up in Schoharie Co. where my Dad lives,the herd is way under capacity because of the winterkill. Just below me and just above N.Y.C. in Westchester Co. the county is over run with deer.(and they issue the doe permits to prove it,2 per person and you can get more if you want because they are always undersubscribed) As I said before,up to my Dad's you usualy wait 2-3 years to get a doe permit. I don't claim to be the sharpest head in the quiver,that's why I ask questions. Sometimes though, I guess it seems like I'm stirring the pot.....

Thanks Again Richie!!!!!  

[Broken Arrow 1]

I would most definitley shoot a button buck if the opprotunity presented itself. I am not a horn hunter and never will be. I do not shoot whatever comes in front of me all the time I make the decision on a hunt by hunt basis.

[Troy Edwards]

To many post to read through all of them, but it seems to me the term's button buck and spike are being confused. A button buck to me is a fawn and, I absolutely will not shoot (very little meat). A spike is usually a yearling (but of course not always). I'm not a trophy hunter, I hunt hard and given the chance late in the season will not hesitate to shoot a yearling. Either way I think the term scrub when referring to a deers antlers is a bit offensive, or at least poorly worded.  imo

[onewhohasfun]

Can we look at the big picture here. A well balanced herd should be the goal. A proper sex ratio, and proper age structure within the herd. I know QDM is not for everyone. Having more mature bucks around is not artificially inflating the population. ITS THE WAY IT IS SUPPOSED TO BE! They are the oldest, wisest  most cautious, biggest, strongest, hardest for a predator to kill, and therefore their percentage of the herd should reflect that. Ok call me selfish but the QUALITY of the hunt is what I want. To me it's a lot more exciting to have bucks chasing and trailing, rubs and scrapes everywhere, and be able to rattle, grunt or snort wheeze with some sort of effectiveness. Not the case here, the ratio is too out of whack.To me that is artificial. Fawns born in late August should be a clue, happens here. Sure sitting and waiting for a silent doe is fine. I prefer to get trampled by a bunch of horny rut crazed bucks!

[Richie Nell]

IMO...Two manmade reasons why the south has deer overpopulation issues...
Man killed off the big natural deer predators and clearcutting by the timber industry.

That is not natural.

[Don Stokes]

All of my previous comments have been in reference to the southern half of the US, where we don't get winter kill and overpopulation is the biggest problem that managers have to deal with, in most cases. In the two Nawthun states I've hunted, Iowa and North Dakota, I've seen more and bigger bucks on "unmanaged" public land than on any managed property I've hunted in the South. If you already have quality deer, you obviously don't need QDM. Severe northern winters take care of the excess population and favor the biggest and strongest animals, i.e. big bucks. That, plus short gun seasons, keeps the deer herd closer to the natural balance that existed before humans wiped out the other competing predators. Down South we have to shoot, shoot, shoot those does and allow the young bucks to walk to approach the same type of balance.

Mississippi just changed the legal buck restrictions so that practically all of the yearlings, the 1 1/2 year old bucks, will be protected. A buck in most of the state has to have a minimum 10" inside spread or a main beam length of 13" to be legal. In the fertile delta region, it's 12" inside or 15" beam. With our late rut, nearly all yearling bucks are smaller than this. It has apparently been done to increase the average age of bucks, and encourage the shooting of more does instead of small bucks for meat. Buttons will still be legal as antlerless deer.

Off the subject (again), but the overpopulation problems in some areas of the state have created another issue that will be catastrophic for bowhunters if the current well-founded rumors are true. It now appears that next year we may have no separate seasons for bows or primitive weapons. There is a strong push to open deer season on Oct. 1 and keep it open until Jan. 31, with all legal weapons allowed all of the time. That's what can happen when doe populations are allowed to get out of hand!! For us bowhunters, it means that we won't have the opportunity to hunt unpressured bucks (or does) before the gun hunters turn them nocturnal. I would hate to be in the sporting goods business in this state now, because if this happens they will have great difficulty selling off their inventories of primitive weapons to the majority of hunters who just want to shoot a deer by whatever means is legal at the time, and are not dedicated to bowhunting like most of us are.

[LoweBow]

I always assumed that 99% of the guys on TG were seasoned hunters of some sort or other.  Most having started w/ other weapons or "Cross Dressers" that use trad, compound, guns, etc, but still seasoned.

I'm sorry if this offends a few, but I'm overwhelmed w/ dismay over this poll to begin with....
5% of the people answering this poll believe that a button buck is a genetically deficient deer?   WTH?  Really?
I'm blown away that in todays age w/ all the information at our fingertips that anyone would really think this.  A quick search on Google will fill us w/ a weeks reading on what a button buck really is.

and "Really Late Fawn" ?
Not late or even really late....a button buck is a fawn...period.  It is called a "button" because is has pedicles, which all bucks have at one stage or another his 1st year of life.  Non polished antler.

Excuse my rant....

[KentuckyTJ]

Wow, there are many ideas on QDM here I find unbelievable. Now I'm going to really mess up some minds...around 60% of the genetics comes from the doe.

I have a good friend who is a member here and also happens to be a wildlife biologist in our state. About time for him to speak. Come on Joe set some minds straight here.

[Don Stokes]

KY TJ, of course half of the genes come from the doe, but how can it be around 60%? Why not 50%? Just curious about where the number came from. It's been over 40 years since I took a genetics course, so my memory could be flawed, I guess. It certainly is about some other things... can't remember just what at the moment...    

In captive breeding programs, does that hatch bucks that get bigger than average are favored, but I don't know how you could tell which ones have the better genes in the wild, although I did have a club member tell me years ago not to shoot a doe in a certain place because she had twin buck fawns every year.

[Richie Nell]

KentuckyTJ,
Not sure about the exact % but you are right.

You may want to read other posts on the issues with spikes.
I have mentioned more than once how difficult to impossible it is to manage the genetics of a deer herd. Simply because of the maternal influence that can't be managed for or against.

QDMA is not at all about managing for genetics.  It is about producing more older bucks and more nutrition for the deer herd. Then the better antlers show up.

A bucks genetic makeup is madeup when he is conceived.  The only possible way for genetics to be expressed in the antler growth or body weight potential is with age and good nutrition.

Just like a child that is born underweight but grows up to be a larger than average adult.  You never know the genetic make up until you eat and age.