PRODUCTION vs. CUSTOM BOWS

[LBR]

this thread is like comparing hamburger to a juicy tenderloin.  

Maybe sometimes, not always though.  The "cook" can make as much or more difference than the meat.

Take venison.  Someone who knows how to butcher and prepare it can make hindquarter taste as good and be as tender as backstrap.  Someone who doesn't know what they are doing might cook a backstrap or inner loin that isn't fit to eat.  

On that same note, a good bowyer can take average materials and make an excellent shooter.  If you don't know what you are doing, it doesn't matter how good the materials are, you still won't have a good bow when you are done.

Same thing with time building a bow.  Sure, you can invest mega-hours with ingraving, inlays, a hand-rubbed finish, etc.--those won't affect the shooting, but that kind of stuff does have to be payed for, and the customer should know that up front.  

However, just like with the cooking, if the bowyer knows his stuff and has the proper equipment, he can turn out quality bows much, much faster than a novice or a hobby bowyer.  Does that justify the slower guy charging more for the same bow, just because it took him 3-5 times as long to build it?

I don't have a problem with someone selling a bow for as much as they can get for it, but some of the excuses for the prices leave me scratching my head.  

[Sixby]

Lot of suppositions in your [post LBR. You are making assumptions that because it takes more time to build the bow that the bowyer does not have the quialification of the one building the cheaper bow. In some cases that may be true but it also is a broad brush. The same bowyer that can build a great bow out of cheaper materials can also build a great bow out of the best of materials.
When you have a bowyer that builds a bow that his customers say outshoots everything they own and has super high quality in fit and finish and the customer is ecstatically happy then you have what I am talking about. That bowyer should get what his efforts are worth. No bowyer is forcing another person to buy a bow from them .

I just put it this way. If you want one of my bows then you will pay me to build it or win it in an auction. My prices are justified

Like I said I'm not running down the guys building the bows for 300. or 500. This thread is running down the custom bowyers charging what they deem their craft and bow to be worth. That is why I answered it. That is not an excuse .

If you ask any one of my customers if my bows are worth the prices most will tell you they have bought several of them. All will tell you that they are worth the price. Does it matter then  what the people that will never buy one of them anyway think of the price. If they ever shot the bow they might change their minds. Thats my perspective. No excuse intended or given or needed   God Bless and have a Merry Christmas, Steve

[kevin braun]

It's really not "only" about the time and materials involved.  I'm not a bowyer, but am a small business owner. Many custom bowyers have to charge what they do to make a living.  Keep in mind, Income taxes and Insurance(health, property, liabilty, etc.) that are involved in setting prices when operating a business.

[LBR]

Lot of suppositions in your [post LBR. You are making assumptions that because it takes more time to build the bow that the bowyer does not have the quialification of the one building the cheaper bow.  

Just to clarify, that's not at all what I said or what I meant.  I meant just what I said.  For instance:

"Does that justify the slower guy charging more  for the same bow ,..."

"Sure, you can invest mega-hours with ingraving, inlays, a hand-rubbed finish, etc.--those won't affect the shooting, but that kind of stuff does have to be payed for,..."

"I don't have a problem with someone selling a bow for as much as they can get for it,..."

FWIW, I'm a small business owner, I know several bowyers on a first-name basis, I deal with one on a regular basis, and I've shot some of the finest bows on this earth--in my opinion at least.  That's all it is--my opinion--but it is an informed opinion.

Chad

[Hatrick]

A true custom bow can be an awesome weapon but I have to ask, how many times does the average trad bowhunter, especially the new ones, pick up a brochure or go on a web site and order from the pictures and description without ever stepping into the bowyers shop. What do they get?? Sometimes a great bow that works for them. But how many times do they say,  "wow...this looks fantastic"  only to have it end up in the classifieds 4 months later.  

Come on guys, how many times do you go to the bowyers shop and pick out the woods, discuss your shooting style, hunting style, draw length, tapers, tiller, GRIP, etc. and really see the bow come to life in person. Some do, and yes, they're getting a "custom" bow. But NOT MANY.

You have a better chance going to a trad shoot and picking up a bow, shooting it, and saying "yeah, this is the one", and buying that bow. Is it really then a "custom."??? Dare yet to say "I want one just like it with only with %$#@ veneers and 3 pounds heavier" only to have it show up and the grip is just not quite the same...but it looks great!!!

I am in NO WAY knocking "custom" bows or small time bowyers. Most are outstanding people and help to keep our passion heated up looking for the latest and greatest. Hell, It's just plain fun and I enjoy it. I just have to wonder that If they are so much better and truely custom then why do so many of us buy so many??? YES, I am putting myself in that category, at least I was.

Now I buy mostly older Howatt bows and find with a high strength string they shoot with just about anything out there. I modify them and refinish as I see fit...custom now for me. Or just enjoy a well preserved one that needs no refinishing at all. Most of those old bows were extremely well made and still servicable.

I would agree that the majority of new "production bows" do leave a lot to be desired as far as fit and finish. The older ones had it all over them in that regard.

Just had to vent a little.   :D

[LBR]

You make a good point--get right down to it, I don't know of anyone who offers a "true" custom, and few could afford one if it was offered.

My favorite (custom?) bowyer calls his bows "production bows with options".  He says that for a bow to be truly custom, it would have to be designed from the ground up for a specific archer--forms and all.  If anyone does that, I don't know about it.

Chad

[Migra Bill]

I have always owned production bows. Most Bears from the 60's and 70's. Love them. With that said, I am looking REAL forward to my Norm Johnson Snakebit I ordered in July. REAL forward.

[Gordon martiniuk]

If you did not go to Bowyers shop and pick out woods ,, Discuss your shooting style Draw length.tiller and have the grip fit to your hand ,, you are not getting a true custom Bow. a good Bowyer will let you shoot your new bow before finishing and tweek the grip to suite you.(some people send a grip to copy) LBR is also correct in that you still have to pick a model of bow your bowyer has as good forms take time to build and perfect.never heard of a Bowyer make a form for only 1 bow  (production bows with options) sounds right on the mark      

[PAPA BEAR]

get what ya pay for...thats it thats all.

[Dave Bulla]

I was just thinking, is it any different really than guns?  You can have a custom rifle built on say a Mauser action or maybe a Hart action or a Remington 700 action.  You can choose a barrel from a certain maker and if you have the time and money you could have the barrel made to order with a certain contour, a specific headspace and chambered in a custom wildcat cartridge.  You could have the stock made to your specs from a piece of wood you picked out and you could have it carved, inletted and checkered by the person or people of your choice.  You could then have the metal engraved by a custom engraver too.  But the question at the end of the day would be, does it shoot any better than an out of the box rifle?  Are you striving for performance or looks?  The next question would be can you hold and aim as well as the gun can shoot?  Is there a relevant difference between a custom gun that shoots a .5" group and one that shoots a 1.0" group?  Are you willing to pay extra for "pretty"?

I've seen many custom rifles that don't get much better than 1" groups at 100 yards from a benchrest and I've seen production rifles that will shoot under an inch all day long.

Are bows any different?  Well one difference is that you can't shoot a bow off the bench to compare accuracy from one to another.  Closest thing would be a shooting machine of some kind.  But I guess the real difference would be more of a feeling with bows.  Guns just kick and go bang from a static position.  Bows are dynamic and get pulled and released.  It's a subjective thing.  One bow will feel smoother than another on the draw.  Another will feel less shock on release than the next one.  Some will feel lighter than the marked weight and some will feel far heavier.  Some will make you shake your hand and put it down, some will make you smile and reach for another arrow.  Is it worth paying for the smile you feel when you shoot a really good bow?

The original question though was "Why spend $1000+ on a custom bow when you can buy a Bear or Martin that performs just as well for half the price? Most production bows also look great and last for decades. What do you think? "

The primary reason for most people would likely be "because I can".  Personally, I can't spend that kind of money but if I could I might.

Like guns, the difference between production and custom is real but subjective in an aesthetic way based on personal likes and dislikes but the difference in performance is not always a huge factor.  Also, mI've seen many many times where people, especially those new to the sport, rave about how great bow "X" is.  It might be a Samik, a Martin X100 or a Bear Montana or some other entry level bow that other people who have been around the sport longer and who have shot more types and brands of bows used to own but have moved on to a different bow because they have found them to be far better for various reasons.  Is it offensive for the guy with a "cheap" bow to hear that his bow isn't as nice a shooting bow as some other guys bow?  Certainly!  Is it incorrect?  Maybe not.  My first trad bow as an adult was a "custom" longbow that actually was too short and too heavy for my long draw.  It thumped a good bit when shot too.  I thought it was the greatest thing I'd ever shot and loved it.  I'd have told anyone who asked that it was a great bow and they should buy one themselves.  Shooting a trad bow will do that to you.  It's just so FUN!  I didn't realize that it stacked or thumped more than most bows do.  Heck, I even named it Thumper!  I thought ALL bows wold feel that way when shot.  Eventually I shot other bows and found many that were far more user friendly, smoother to draw and softer in the hand to shoot.  Those "subjective" differences turned out to be pretty real.... That first bow still holds an honored place in my bow rack because it is the bow that got me started back into trad archery as an adult but I almost never shoot it any more.  And notice too that that bow WAS a custom bow.  The whole question shouldn't be so much is custom better than production so much as simply, are some bows better than others?

So, I guess I'd like to ask most of those who swear up and down that there is no difference between production bows and custom bows, "Have you really tried enough different bows to make that statement honestly?"  I expect some of you have but I also expect many have not.

As I was once told by Kieth Bain at the Texas State Longbow shoot, it's not the bow, it's the monkey behind it that makes the difference.

[bowslinger]

I have read several good reasons, either way, on whether a custom bow is better than a production bow, or not.  I own 3 custom longbows and two production recurves.  All were bought used.  I like all of them.

How do they shoot?  As far as I know they shoot fine.  As for me, not as good.  I have little doubt that all these bows would shoot consistently well out of a shooting machine.  I am not a shooting machine.

I fly fish and tie flies.  I bought an expensive vise.  Do I tie better flies with it?  No.  But I really like looking at it.  It is a beautiful piece of machine work.  I got it on clearance, otherwise I would not have spent the money.

The same can be said for the several nice fly reels I own.  Do they make me a better fly fisher?  No!  But I love fishing with them.  They are well machined and balanced, are light, and are very useful when fighting a large trout or salmon.

Why do I spend the extra money?  Who cares.  I pay my bills and taxes and am saving for retirement.  I don't have cable television, I do not go out to eat a lot becuase I would rather have nicer gear.  As has been said, it is a choice.  You can't take the bow with you when you die, but you can't take the money with you either.

Do the custom bows shoot better?  I don't care if they do or they don't.  They are, in my eyes, works of art.  I enjoy holding them and shooting them as much as I enjoy looking at a terrific piece of art.  I shoot and ultimately hunt because I want to.  I own custom and mass production bows because I want to.

There is an old saying, beware the man that owns only one gun; he probably knows how to use it.  I would be better served to own only one bow.  But there are so many good bows on the market that I refuse to limit myself to one bow.

What is important to me is that you learn to shoot the bow(s) you have very well, especially if you hunt.  We have a responsibility to make quick, humane kills out of respect for our game.

I will never ridicule a person for their choice in equipment or in the amount of money they choose to spend.  That is their choice. If someone wants to question how I spend my money, I don't care.  I will spend it as I see fit.

[Otto]

Crap....because I didn't drive from Ohio to Oregon, now I find out my Blacktail isn't custom.

Daggonitt....why don't you guys TELL me this stuff???!!!

[acadian archer]

IMO, LBR is right regarding what a true custom bow is. Unless it is fitted to the archers hands, measurements, it is NOT a true custom bow.

I look at it this way ; you can buy a Cadillac or a Lexus. Both are good cars and you can get them loaded with options. Does that make them a custom car? No, it makes them a model with many options. Just picking the woods and draw weight hardly makes it "custom"

Small bowyers , have to make enough profit on each bow to make it worth their while. They work hand and deserve money for the effort they put in.
 Larger production outfits can take advantage of mass purchasing power, computerized cutting jigs, etc. but may also have to spend more money on advertising and marketing. These marketing costs can be significant and must be passed on to the consumer.

High cost doesn't mean the best product nor does a less expensive bow mean less performance.

I think it would be very interesting to have a bunch of archers shootssome bows (while blindfolded) and get their opinions on "smoothness", handshock, etc. I think it could be very entertaining.

Bottom line is that there are tons of good bows out there, big "pruduction" outfits, small individual bowyers and smaller production outfits and likely very very few true custom bowyers.

shoot what you shoot best and don't worry about the pedigree

[Sixby]

 Finally, Three great posts and I agree with them all. Especially laughing at the none custom Blacktail. Norm would love that one. Since when does a bow have to be one of a kind (literally) and burn the forms after it is made for it to be a custom?

Are all custom rifles built on Remington actions, or Mauser actions non custom now because they have a manufactured action? does the bowyer now have to make his own glass instead of using Gordon's glass? This is not even rational thought.    

I will agree that a true custom will be a one of a kind, non cookie cutter bow that is built especially for one individual. There are bowyers that do that. At least one I know of. I can't vouch for the rest of them but Ric Anderson built a bow for me that was built for my specific draw, weight , hand , grip style and tiller. It came just like I envisioned it. Except nicer.     I do the same for my customers and I believe that there must be other bowyers that build true custom , one of a kind, non cookie cutter bows.

[LocDoc]

After 30 years of shooting trad bows, I can say I've never owned a custom bow. Production bows do just fine for me. Like some here, I can't see past the price. Their beautiful works of art and no doubt shoot somewhat better than a factory bow, but to me it's like comparing my F250 to a Mustang. The Mustang is faster and prettier, but I ain't going to drive it through the woods. Scratching the finish on a 300.00 bow hurts a lot less than a scratch on a 1,200.00 bow.

[Ragnarok Forge]

Here's a good reason to buy custom.  I spent months researching before I chose between a recurve and a longbow after deciding to switch back to trad.  After all that research. I knew I wanted a break down model longbow.  I also knew that I needed at least a 66 inch longbow and preferably a 68 inch bow to completely avoid finger pinch.  

I called almost every custom shop I could find on the web and started with one question.  What length longbow should I shoot to avoid finger  pinch and stacking. I got a constant run of 68 inch answers from the bowyers.  I called several factory reps and archery shops and heard a constant 62 to 64 inch anser.  Why, that was the longest bows they made.  Their goal was to sell me a product, not fit me with what would meet my needs.

I found a local bowyer and asked him the question.  His first question was how tall are you?  6'4" tall.  Next question, do you have really long or regular arms?  Proportionate, not overly long.  His answer 68" bow is your perfect bow length. He said, I can make you a 66" that will not stack and have very mild finger pinch, or a 68 that will fit you perfectly.  After several phone calls and a shop visit, I ordered my bow and waited on pins and needles for 8 months.

I love the bow, and it meets all my wants and needs. It is gorgeous and I got the woods I wanted.  Guess what, I have another on order and a third one in the planning right now.   Exact same draw weights and bow length.

Top notch customer service, gorgeous woods, getting exactly what I want and need from my bow.  Getting to spend time chatting with a world class bowyer, PRICELESS.

I paid $875 and think he only charged me half of what he should have.

Custom is totally worth the money to me.  That is the real answer.  Not for you, just for me.  We all have to decide this one for ourselves.

[trashwood]

Hmmmmmm well the Oplympics are won with "productions" bows.  You can buy production limbs for up to $700 plus shipping. you can buy a Fiberbow riser for $900. As a matter of fact a moderate priced FITA rig will be in the order of $3K of course that includes the arrows.  I would guess the most Olympics bows actually in the Olympics would be close to $5K in the bow and stuff to go one it.  

Lucky ya guys are trad bowhunters.  ya can not even get a set of good target arrows for the price ya pay for a average production hunting bow.  

IBO RU class Triple Crown was won with a production bow.  The rest of the trad classes were not.

rusty

[pumatrax]

I like things that are made by hand...whether it's a handmade knife, or bow or whatever...I might be odd but I have a hard time fallin in love with mass produced stuff...for me there is something magic in something hand made...I like knowing someone put some of their heart and soul and pride into making an item...call it mojo , magic or whatever ; it's what makes TRAD archery different...thank God there are still bowyers,and knife makers,and leather smiths,and true craftsmen out there...Doug

[Benny Nganabbarru]

The word "custom" clouds the issue, I reckon.

Actually, it shouldn't even be an issue.

Bows come from bowyers, who work with varying shop sizes, varying numbers of colleagues / employees, varying tools and processes, and giving varying options.

It's wonderful to have such a broad range of choices.

[Sixby]

What I am seeing here is two mind sets. Neither wrong so why attack the other? Onemindset sees a bow simply as a tool to use. Another sees it as a part of themselves and the mystique of archery.
I responded because I was observing a pack mentality by one of the factions  demonizing the other. Instead we all are part of a wonderful bunch of people that love doing the same things and really appreciate what God has given us. Merry Christmas everyone.