Moose Arrows for a 50# Bow...

[unregistered]

Well to make a long story short I found a sweet spot for Moose while out for Grouse this November and I am thinking about trying my luck for swamp donkey. But I don't want to try and shoot said swamp donkey with 490 grain cedar arrows from a 50# recurve.
So here is the plan. I went to the local archery joint and liked the look of the Easton Axis FMJ. Thin shaft for less drag but heavier than every other carbon cept for the Grizz Stick which is too pricy for my budget. So I figure I slap a 100 grain brass insert with a 220 grain Muzzy Phantom on the front and stick a 3gpi wieght tube up the back so that I can try and get a 700ish grain, thin, high FOC arrow.
So to all you carbon shooters, what are your guesses for spine and length in order to achieve good arrow flight from a center shot recurve with a 28inch draw? Also since the shaft is small is staight fletch the only option?
And has anybody out there done this sorta thing before? If so pipe up and tell us how you did it and how it went.

[Hot Hap]

ttt

[Gordon martiniuk]

Justin Moose arn't that hard to kill keep the shots close and use a cut on contact broadhead that is scary sharp!! I like at least 10gr lb if you go to 12 gr " your shots will have to be real close why not try a few more lbs draw weight ,, if you were ever haveing to shoot more than 15 to 20 yrd at a Moose you will be glad you uped your poundage, or you may have to pass on shots out of your effective range with a 50 lb bow,, offset fletch with those shafts will work well I like to stay with 5" feathers for broadheads,, makes them fly well even if the get a bit wet or ruffled

[Richie Nell]

If you haven't bought the FMJ's I suggest getting a carbon that is very light and stiff.  Begin with light weight stiff shaft so you can add plenty of weight up front to get the total weight up and FOC way up.  I would do everything possible to get the FOC in the 30% range.

I suggest the GT Vapor 3555.  You can get total weight 650+ gr. and 30+% Ultra FOC.  I did it today and it flys perfect and hits hard.

[Steve O]

You are thinking correctly!  Just leave out the weight tubes...

FMJs are excellent arrows, slimmer than the Gold Tips and very durable.  With a brass insert and 250g head, I'd guess you are going to need a 400

[Ragnarok Forge]

Justin,  I would try 500 spine first.  I worked my way down from 300, thru 340, and 400 spine FMJs to find out that the 500 works perfect for me.  Mine are 31 inches long with a 125 grain brass adapter and 175 grain broadheads and spines perfectly at full length.  I shoot a 55lb at my 30 inch draw length R/D longbow.  

For your bow, I suspect a 100 grain insert with 250 or 300 up front in the broadhead will make them work perfectly.  The FMJ's are tough as nails and will do the trick. I would reccomend leaving them full lenght and cutting them from the back as you tune them.  Refletching is easy enough.  You can easily get 3-4 inch feathers on the shaft with a heavy helic.  Don't bother with the weight tubes, put the weight in the broadhead or adapter.  For Moose, I would use steel inserts or broadhead adapters and a cut on contact broadhead.

[Jack Whitmire Jr]

Justin I would concentrate on accuracy more than weighing up the shaft . I feel that a 10-12  grain arrow  with a PERFECTY tuned arrow will do the job if placed EXACTLY RIGHT.

I agree with basically what Ragnarok Forge
has said about.

Spend the money on a KME sharpener, we don't know what sharp is until we use one of these sharpeners.


Jack

[Richie Nell]

Jack,
I like to think everyone practices to be as accurate as possible with a well tuned arrow and a scary sharp broadhead whether they have bumped up the arrow weight and FOC or not.  That is not an "either or" situatuion.  

He is hunting moose.  I may be wrong but I would personally make sure I had some really good weight on that arrow going after a moose. Especially when not using a heavy bow.
 
NOT weight instead of well tuned accuracy...weight WITH well tuned accuracy.

[BigJim]

They have done testing on small diameter shafts and determined that it doesn't affect the penetration at all. I guess the shaft lubricated with blood doesn 't drag too much. If you are looking to buy new shafts, save yourself some money and buy some that you can't bend. Like anything that doesn't have aluminium in it. Put a scary sharp 2 blade head on it and warm up the grill.
Bigjim

[Bill Carlsen]

Craaig Warren of Maine, who mfgrs. the Bow Bolt, shot a huge record class bull this past year. He had had shoulder surgery before he knew he would be drawn for a  moose permit so he was shooting a bow maybe 2# heavier than yours. He killed the moose with Bear Razorhead that was about 50years old mounted on a cedar shaft. The arrow went thru the chest and stuck in the off side shoulder. With all your talk about a heavy arrow I think you will be better advised to make sure that whatever arrow you decided to use, regardless of weight, please be sure that it is tuned perfectly to your bow. I would rather be shooting a lighter arrow that is shooting straight as it hits the target than one that is heavier but not properly tuned. The Muzzy Phantom should do an excellent job. I have another close friend who shot a large bull moose in Maine this year using a 60# bow and an arrow in excess of 700 grians. His penetration was no better than my other friend Craig's who was shooting a bow 8# lighter and an arrow at least 100 grains lighter. Heavy FOC and perfect tuning are the key....let the arrow weight take care of itself.

[unregistered]

Thanx for all the relpies everyone, good info from all.
First off I am already set on using the FMJ as far as specific shaft goes since I usually prefer aluminum when I am not shooting wood and I have never seen an aluminum shaft as small as the FMJ. I wanted to go thin mostly from reading that mister Ashby found significant penetration enhancement from a shaft of smaller diameter than the broadhead ferrule. So I figured the Phantom and FMJ would work well in that respect. As far as increasing bow wieght, that is simptly not an option. I cut the tendons in the fingers of my right hand when I was a kid and it has taken me three years to work up to 50#. I don't think I will ever get any higher.
And considering the limitations of my 50# bow against an animal of such size, I had been thinking of restricting my shots to under 20 yards. I should have about 6-7 months before the up coming Moose season to practice, which should be more than sufficient time to become familiar and accurate with these new arrows.
I may leave out the weight tubes as you said Steve O since most of the searches on this site did not speak to highly of them.
I will keep you all posted on how the arrow project is coming and I hope to begin the tuning process just before X-Mas. I might even be able to add a pic or two. And one more question. What does ttt mean?

[Dave Bulla]

ttt= To the top.  As in someone bringing this topic back to the top of the index list where others can see it and comment.

[Richie Nell]

Bill, you said...
"With all your talk about a heavy arrow I think you will be better advised to make sure that whatever arrow you decided to use, regardless of weight, please be sure that it is tuned perfectly to your bow. I would rather be shooting a lighter arrow that is shooting straight as it hits the target than one that is heavier but not properly tuned."

What about a well tuned HEAVY arrow and HIGH FOC that is shooting straight as it hits the target?
Why wouldn't you rather have that?

Again, why is it and "either/or" situation?  Why do you imply you can't have both?

[ishoot4thrills]

I think you would be okay using a setup very similar or the same as mine, including using two blade heads. (Check my signature for the details) But, I must admit, I've never hunted anything bigger than whitetails. Still, I believe I wouldn't hesitate to use my setup for elk or moose. I get perfect arrow flight too, btw.

My Bemans are very small diameter. I fletch them helical with no prob.

I remember reading an article by Glen Hegelian from the early 60s about a moose hunting group. They got their moose with less than 50 pound bows and standard arrows.  A modern fast recurve with a light string probably has more power than that 55 pound minimum I read about 40 years ago.  Going a bit heavier on that shaft weight could very well have a positive effect, but I would not get carried away with it to a point where your range is severely limited. I saw a large old  milk cow get put out of its misery once with a 50 pound Hill that was only drawn to 26" with a cedar shaft.  The arrow flew straight through and the cow was dead in seconds. More weight and power can be a good thing, but arrow flight, sharp broadhead and accuracy still come first.

[Richie Nell]

oh boy

[Don Stokes]

It's simply amazing that we managed to kill anything in the good ol' days, without carbon arrows and extreme FOC. Just lucky, I guess. Those lightweight Bear heads (not even 150 grains!) and cedar arrows must not have been as good as we thought they were. Good thing Fred isn't around any more to suffer the embarrassment.

Sorry guys, I just can't help myself sometimes. I'll go before I offend someone.  

[Craig Warren]

Justin,
I'm the guy Bill mentioned earlier in this thread. As he mentioned, I had some of the same limitations you are talking about regarding bow weight, and finally got up to 53# about two weeks before the hunt.  My prefered weight before the rotator cuff surgery was always between 55# and 60#.  I was pleased when I found I could shoot 53# accurately in time for the hunt.  I chose cedar and a 51 year old Bear Razorhead for sentimental reasons but also because a lot of real icons of this game (like Fred Bear himself)  had used similar weight bows with similar arrow configurations in pursuit of similar game very successfully.  My cedar arrow with the Razorhead weighed 545 gr. total which is just over the "magic" 10 gr. per pound of bow weight.  The bow I used is a 2 piece hybrid longbow, 53# @ 28" and performs with most of the modern day recurve designs even though it is technically a longbow.

If I thought my old brain could have been programed for the trajectory of a heavier arrow goin slower than what I was used to in the two weeks left before the hunt, I proably would have tried to add some weight but the arrows I was using were tuned perfectly to the bow and I didn't want to change anything at that late date.

I was hoping for a shot inside 20 yards where trajectory wouldn't matter much anyway but an animal the size of a mature bull has a large kill zone which allows for slightly longer but still ethical shots. But maybe not ethical if an overly heavy arrow dropped below the kill zone at 25 or 30 yards because I wasn't used to it.

The long and short of it all is that the shot was exactly 20 yards and the 545gr arrow got both lungs and the top of the heart but did not pass through.  The 1040 pound bull went 112 yards after the shot.  The moral of the story...shoot a well tuned arrow of 500 gr or more and shoot it accurately and you will be fine.
I personally don't think the shaft diameter has much affect on penitration because, after all, the broadhead cuts a hole far larger than the shaft diameter no mater what size the shaft.

Good luck on your hunt.

Craig

[David Mitchell]

Well said, Don Stokes!  My sentiments exactly  

[jeanpaul3006]

this season, shooting a schafer at 53lbs at 27 with 55/75 with a 300 grain tip shot a moose. the arrow penetrated and stopped on a rib on the far side. took out the aorta and lungs, went 6 yards. i think the 35/55 will be a better fit for my bow. the other goldtips are pretty stiff. the moral is i would n't hesitate to shoot a moose with a 5o lbs bow. more than sufficient. tune her up and go. good luck