Fair or Unfair. Stumped by an anti...

[unregistered]

I was talking to an anti-hunting friend yesterday (yes we can coexist)and the conversion got around to hunting, ethics and whats fair and so on. We usually try to avoid such topics (hunting in general) as we never can agree on such things. But this time it just came up and I must admit she said some things that really got me a thinkin.
I started huntin big game 10 years ago and what I do and how I do it has changed a great deal in that time. This ain't a confessional so I won't go into detail, but let me just say that I have done some things in the field that make me feel  pretty pathetic. I mention this to point out that I like to think I have realised my wrongs and done my best to mend my ways. I felt I had become an ethical hunter. But after talking to my friend I am not so sure.
One of her first questions was why do I hunt? I told her because man is a predator no different than a Wolf, Bear, Cougar etc. And this is where she stumped me. "Does a Wolf use a tree stand? Or artificial scents and calls? And what about binoculars and camouflage?"
Hmmmmm. Well I honestly couldn't think of a single thing to say to that. And I still can't. And you know, perhaps she has a point. What do you folks think?

[Focusource]

My advantage over the prey is my superior intellect.  Any way I use that in the field is fine with me.

[trapperDave]

he would if he could  

[lpcjon2]

Cave men,Indians and a lot of people before us used the same methods and at least we dont keep them penned up and shoot them in the head with a nail gun.Just like people before us had farms and raised animals for food.The Indians didn't build condos and strip malls either so why do we that takes a greater toll on animals than what we do at least we eat it for nourishment. Did you ever hear of PETV(people for the ethical treatment of vegetables) nobody goes to protest how a carrot is handled...LOL

[ishiwannabe]

Touchy situation. You dont want to offend your friend, or put a bad spin on hunting.

I think if predators could use weapons(or gadgets), they would. I have seen footage of chimps using branches to club other animals for prey, get termites out of mounds with sticks.


That being said, I often like to inform antis of how much I love the animals I hunt. I point out that my purchase of lisences and such benefit the "herd" greatly, as does decreasing it's numbers.
I also tell them it isnt about "the kill" for me, that simply being surrounded by nature is enough for me.

You could also point out that each predator has a very different style of hunting. The cat stalks, the dogs chase, etc. They are all a means to an end. We as humans are able to define HOW we hunt, be it gun, bow, ground or treestand.

I wish you luck and remember to stay civil. My best hunting buddy and I first met over a heated debate about hunting. He was an anti. Imagine how great it was to watch him make a perfect shot on a six pointer years later...

[acollins]

I would say no, a wolf does not use a treestand but will get up high where he can locate his prey making it the same effect. Wolves have superior eyesight,  to give us the same affect we use binoculars.  A wolfs fur allows him to blend in with his surroundings (camoflauge).  Wolves will hunt in packs which will cause a deer to possibly move in a certain direction,  similar to our artificial scents which bring a deer to a certain area.  So I would say man and wolves means of hunting are similar.  Just my opinion.  I would just agree to disagree with her.

[robtattoo]

If I can be honest (& in my bluntness, possibly rude. I'll apologise in advance as I mean you no disrespect) I think you gave her a bloody stupid answer & you've put yourself in an unarguable situation.
As a hunter married to an anti-hunting vegetarian (you're right about the coexistence!  :D ) I've always tried to be 100% honest when Jules has asked me why I hunt. I never, ever give her the generic 'Because it's natural, Man is a hunter' answer. I try & explain that, basically, I like to eat wild, happy, free-ranging meat. I enjoy the experience of going & getting that meat. I take pleasure &  satisfaction in effectively being able to kill an animal that'll support my nutritional needs/wants. I love my time in the outdoors pursuing my quarry, be it deer, pigs, rabbits, whatever.... I would rather eat a squirrel that I hunted & shot myself than a store-bought, factory farmed fillet steak. Her choice is to not eat meat, my choice is to not put the responsibility of killing the meat that I eat on someone elses shoulders. There's a lot, lot more to my answers/arguments than this, hell, I could probably write a book, but that's the basic outline.

[unregistered]

Yes it was a bit of a touchy conversation and it never got heated, but it sure felt odd being stumped like that. Thanks for your thoughts, perhaps I will be able to give an appropriate answer next time.

[robtattoo]

Alternatively you could try a friend of mine's approach (& I quote...)

" Hell honey, 100 years ago we couldn't fly either, but if you want that romantic trip to Paris this year, you gonna walk?"

[RM81]

Originally posted by Focusource:
My advantage over the prey is my superior intellect.  Any way I use that in the field is fine with me.

I agree.  The smartest predator is the one who gets a full belly at the end of the day.

[Jesse Minish]

A wolf or cougar doesn't because it cant. Just as I cant run faster and longer than a deer and kill it with my teeth and claws.

That is like saying plants use photosynthesis to grow so why dont people?

[Brian Krebs]

lpcjon2 : Don't laugh at carrot abuse ! I saw a snowman at grocery store picking his nose !!

 Hey - in regards to anti-hunters - you do no not owe them a reason for why you hunt.

 The rain forests are being cut down to grow soy; herbicides contain chemicals that are dangerous byproducts: and one drop on your skin can kill you.  
 So they put it into herbicides and spread the danger out; and that stuff goes into pesticides too.
 In order for a person to grow food; nature has to be displaced. Insects cannot live there; birds eat poisoned insects and die.

 In order for something to live on this planet: something has to die. That is how it works.
 If your friend is confused over this; then just admit they are confused.

 Native Americans used wolf hides to sneak up on bison; and the rumor that the wolves were all car killed - well I started that rumor: and its not true.

 Ishi went without eating meat and took off smelly clothes and heck- we have always had to be sneaky to get close enough to shoot an arrow.

 If you hunt game; you can follow the game; but when you plant something; you have to stay and defend it. Which came first; war or farming?

 A lot of us do not use treestands; or camo; or artificial scents-- ask your friend if she is  promoting our sponsors here  

[Killdeer]

What, I'm supposed to go out and use half as many legs as a wolf, run down my prey, without benefit of a pack, hurl myself at a hamstring and hang on with my undersized canines?

Does your friend think that the Native Americans were wrong in using atlatls, then bows, and then firearms to harvest their meat? OK, so we go back to running the herds off of cliffs, or hazing them into pens for clubbing.

Is it fairer to domesticate animals so that they will blandly hang around my house and allow me to slaughter them? Am I allowed to slaughter them with a knife, or must I use my teeth?

Or am I supposed to go vegan? That opens a whole 'nother kettle of worms, as vegans seem to believe that plants do not have the same status as animals, and so are less deserving of living out their lives undisturbed and unslaughtered. Life is life, and life feeds on life. There is no "guiltless" existence on this planet, and so I accept that this is the way the world is made and I will play my part in it.

On the other hand, your friend seems to have the same natural dislike of gadgetry that we trad archers do. It is just that the tolerance level is adjusted a tad differently. Let your friend accompany you on a stumping foray in your hunting grounds, see firsthand what you do and how challenging it is, and then sleep on it. Without a formal discussion of the outing, maybe you will both agree to tacitly back off from the disagreement, preserving the peace and the friendship, though it appears to me as though your friendship is sound and secure.

Lemme think about this, I am sure I can come up with something more coherent in the morning.
Killdeer  

[unregistered]

Lots of points to ponder for sure. I think I need a beer.

[lpcjon2]

Justin I think you need a bundle of copy paper and another ink cartridge and print this stuff out so you have a reference manual for your next talk with the anti...LOL

[Killdeer]

Too cold here, I believe I will get another glass of Port.

Killdeer  

[Builder]

For myself and my family we love the taste of wild game and like the fact it is much healthier than the farm raised version, it is a very large part of our diet.
I like the fact that I am contributing to keeping a healthy herd for future generations with my license fees that manage and insure game limits.

[reddogge]

She does not have a point. You are not a wolf with wolf speed on four legs, wolf nose to smell or wolf hearing to hear or wolf teeth to kill therefore you use the tools at your disposal to hunt game and you hunt because you love to hunt.  No need to justify that at all.

True story.  I went to a party where a guest delivered a dead wild goose on the hoof to the host.  A horrified female PETA type guest demanded to know how he could shoot such a beautiful thing.  His reply was "Until I grow wings and learn to fly up and catch them and wring their damned necks shooting will have to do."  I never forgot that one and it got a good laugh from the party.

[unregistered]

I agree with all when you say man has not the speed, nose, fangs nor hearing of our four legged counterparts. But we do have intelligence.
I do agree with my friend when she says we do not need such things as binos and camo and such. We use them to make things easier and to an extent there ain't nuthin wrong with that. I tried still huntin Whitetails this year and even with my binos and camo the Deer still beat me. But I don't think in all honesty I can say that we need anything more than our bows and our wits.
Time for another beer.

[Autumnarcher]

Her analogy was flawed from the git-go. No, a wolf does not use a "treestand", but a cougar, an owl, a hawl, all use them.

A wolf or a coyote do use cover scents- they roll in stinky stuff to hide their scent from their prey. While they may not use calls to imitate their prey, they howl and call to others in the pack to corrdinate their hunt, and to announce they are on the chase.

Her question shows her ignorance of the natural predator. We as human hunters will often pass an easy shot on a small deer. To a wolf, an easy meal is an easy meal. They will corner prey, chase it into deep snow or water, and kill at first opportunity. They know no bag limits, or size restrictions.There is no fair chase in a wolf's world. And there is no such thing as a "humane" kill. They tear their prey apart and will start eating before its dead.  They have hearing, eyesight and a sense of smell that far surpass our own.

I have seen mule deer killed by a mountain lion and left to rot. There were tracks of a cub along side, it was killed to teach jr. how to kill.It was not fed on at all. Neck snapped, claw marks on its sides and back. Dead, rotting and fed on by the magppies.

I never apologize for being a hunter. My goal and intent is to kill game for food. While I draw enjoyment from many aspects of the hunt, the truth is, we hunt to kill prey. Otherwise, we'd be photographers or something. I do not feel a need to justify to someone else my choice to seek out and supply my own meat should I be successful. I kill deer because I like the meat. I catch and kill fish for the same reason.

If someone else chooses not to eat the flesh of other living beings, that is their choice.It has no bearing on my choice.  But they need to understand that even a salad results in dead animals. We cannot draw sustinence no matter what form it takes, without taking the life of something else, be it plant or animal. Its natures way, and its fact.