I'm disappointed

[John Scifres]

That's what happens when we put folks on pedestals.  They are really easy to knock off.

[Tsalagi]

I tend to think in Hill's day, archery was still kinda new to most folks. So they really couldn't know what could and could not be done. There simply weren't other people around to ask and set yardsticks up. It's kind of like flintknapping. A lot of that had to be rediscovered and they made a lot of mistakes in finding out how it was done. I think it was a couple anthropologists who really started it in the early 1970s because they needed to know how it was done to understand the artifacts they were dealing with. It took them a lot of trial and error to find out how it was done. And a lot of tribes had forgotten flintknapping because they were getting steel trade points for a couple hundred years.

There are some phenemonal feats of accuracy done with bows at long range, usually by people who grew up with bows and used them several times a week. Hill may have had this kind of time to practice like that. A real interesting read is "Longbow" by Robert Hardy. He talks about how the English longbowmen were required by law to practice. They actually had fines and penalties for people who didn't. So, this is how they pulled off their long-range archery skills in battle. The early firearms didn't surpass the longbow because they were better weapons, faster, deadlier, or more accurate because they weren't. They were just easier to train people on quicker.

[Mudd]

I'm going to keep reading as I believe there's more to Mr. Hill's message than I've gotten so far. I had a momentary lapse of  thought and turned to feeling for an animal that was gut shot I'm glad I did. It'll make me try to be more sure of any shot I'm about to take. I guess I did learn something without having to do the "evil" deed myself..lol
Thanks for taking it easy on me.
God bless,Mudd

[2treks]

No worries Roy I understand your reaction. I came at it from a different direction.
   When I first started hunting(self taught,not from a hunting family) I thought things would be a certain way. I had zero success for a number of years. When I got to hunt with hunters,that killed stuff, I was agast. I thought that these guys are blood thirsty and crazy. What I ended up discovering was that to hunt and kill you have to figure out your limitations and then move forward and be happy. kills will come and sometimes they are not as grand as we might like them to be.
   The other thing that I have found out over 30 years of hunting and nearly as long bow hunting, is that the way it is told in print or in person is not always as it was. Not meaning that lies are told, but that the small details are not included and that can really make a difference in the story and what REALLY happened. I read about Gerry C.(catquiver guy) a few years back and he hunted much like the guys we are talking about here. If I remember right his motto was "if broadheads ain't fly'n, ain't nothing die'n" That is not very well recieved today. As well it should not be. I think that was in the late 60's early 70's But as the other have said. it was a different time. AND, the guy's in question had something that most of us do not. The SKILL to do it. I think most of the shots we read about that the old time pioneers made, they made on purpose.
   I wonder if somebody before Hill had the same notions to promote himself and bow hunting, But had no skill to do it?  We will never read about him(or her).
Magic bows and magic people are sometimes a myth or a perception.
Just my thoughts.
Chuck

[eric101]

I've been reading these posts and I've never read any of these books and never seen any of the movies because I've only been hunting with a trad bow this season.I've bow hunted for 25 years though and i found out early in hunting as a boy that everyone has a limit to their skill be it stalking or making very long shots.If a man can stalk a deer to within 20 yards and take it does it make him a better hunter than one that can't get that close but can take a deer at 60 yards?Everyone knows his/her limitations and abilities.If you hunt long enough a bad shot will happen be it ten yards or fifty does that mean you are a unethical hunter i think not.The choice of a shot on an animal or whatever is always the hunter's be it success or disappointment.

[jonsimoneau]

George is 100% Right.

[Jerry Wald]

I think if i did NOTHING but shoot and hunt my comfortable shooting distances would be farther too...by how much who knows but you would know yourself.

I play alot of hockey and I shoot at angles most ppl wouldn't even attempt because they think they can't score from there...hmmm alot of them go in, but I know what I can do out there and what I am capable of.

I ride my horse in some areas most ppl wouldn't even walk or walk a horse...it's just what you are used to.

I have chased bears with my horse - how many horse riders out there would even attempt that, but I would be looked upon as crazy or stupid or both and maybe I am but I know my horse and he knows me and we trust each other...

So if you are capable of doing things that others aren't either you are gifted or more seasoned and more confident.

Doesn't mean you can't miss, but odds are in your favour.

Hey I shot a doe muley that only gave me a broadside butt shot at 10 yards once (didn't know any better) and she died on the run in under 70 yards not a cup of blood left in her...I thought it was a great clean kill at the time until I got back to camp...well they read me the riot act, but they went home without an animal...I didn't.

I had a friend freak on a bear and pulled his shot and shot him in the head of all places..that bear dropped like a sack and the broadhead was in his brain.....would I intentionally take that shot NO...but the results speak for themselves.

I also had a bud that shot a bear in the rump out of a tree stand and he pulled his shot and that bear didn't go 45 yards...made a bed and died in it 45 minutes later.

So we do what we can to make the best shot at a comfortable distance right and then caca happens sometimes....well that's bowhunting boys.

If we dwell on it tooooooo long we will learn to second guess everything and our INSTINCTIVE SHOOTING is gonna suffer...betcha

Happy New Year everyone -minus 38 tonight I hear with the windchill.......I hear a Fred bear video calling me.

Jer Bear

[wingnut]

Well I'm disappointed too.  Why do we admire the archers and bowhunters of yesteryear and then criticize them because they didn't think and act as we had imagined they would?

We try to think of ourselves as ethically range limited and practitioners of the art of bowhunting.  When truth is known most can't shoot very well at all.

I admire Fred Bear, Howard Hill and the rest for their adventurous nature and for getting out and doing it then so we can now.  I also admire their ability with the weapon.  I been blessed with having been able to sit and talk for hours with Glenn St. Charles about the old days of hunting and shooting with Fred and the boys.  Those talks left me wanting to develop the skill with the bow to make the shot.  

I'd never take the shot even if I could make it.  That's my decision.  But it would be nice to know that I could make it if I did.

Mike

[Jon Powell]

If I recall correctly Fred took his tiger at around one hundred yards because he figured it was the only chance he might have. I believe the tiger was moving also. That's a heck of a shot! He obviously believed he could make such a shot, and he did.
I don't think people should make a habit of such shots, but I also don't believe skilled individuals should feel forced to live down to lesser skilled peoples level.
I'm not trying to start a war, I just think each individual has to make that decision for themselves. Skill and confidence levels vary greatly.

[TOEJAMMER]

George puts as well as anyone can.  Mudd would really be appalled if he read "The Witchery Of Archery" by the Thompson Brothers.

[trashwood]

I read somewhere that Howard Hill shot 200 arrows a day in practice.  I would bet those arrows were not shot at 20 yds.  

So lets just think about what kinda of shots we would be if we shot 200 arrows a day??  if you shot 200 arrows a day out to 60 yds you might think that your effect range was more than 17 yds???

Several of my hunting buddies have taken antelope with a trad bow.  I believe that some of the shots were at a pretty good distance.  I was present when a trad bow hunter took one of the first aoudad sheep taken with a trad bow in Texas.  His shot was at 60 yds.  One shot double lung.  I have heard of several trad bow hunters taking big horn sheep and moutian goat well outside of 20yds.

so if you think there are not good enough shots today to take game well outside 20 yds I think maybe they just don't post on the internet but they are out there.

rusty

[dnovo]

I saw last year where a guy posted (maybe another site) about shooting an elk at 62 yards. 1 arrow kill shot with a recurve. Everybody read him the riot act, but he practiced a lot and was confident he could do it. I have killed a cottontail rabbit at 40 yards and a groundhog at 35. Those shots were of the swing up and shoot variety, letting years of shooting take over. If I don't think about it I can't screw it up. I know our heroes of yesteryear were much better than I could hope to be. How many of us have shot a York round at the distances they did?
 I think times were different then and we should enjoy the stories and history of those times and not apply them to our day and age.
 How many of us are going to criticize Paul Schaefer for being the incredible shot he was?
 Read and enjoy our colorful past.

[Mudd]

I did not belittle HH nor will I ever. I just felt bad for the gut shot bear and said so. I have read the Witchery of Archery but that was years ago. I don't remember how I felt reading it, too many years have since past.
If I had it to do over.. knowing me I'd most likely say it again and about the same way..lol I'm tough skinned enough to take it..lol if it's  tongue lashing I need, get after it.
Happy New Year everyone!!
God bless,Mudd

[Jerry Wald]

nobody was saying you were be-littling HH

Mudd - gut shots can happen even at close range. I just think the reason they (the legends) feel comfortable at ranges we THINK are unbelievable is PRACTICE...they spent way more time practicing and practicing at different distances just roving the landscape.

Hockey greats:

Look at Sydney Crosby.....on a shoot out...man he is awesome...WHY ....PRACTICE...Wayne Gretzky was the same. He made professionals look amature like when he was on his game...PRACTICE.

But ALL THE GREATS have the same thing in common PRACTICE...we just don't seem to get enough TIME to practice.

If any of us had millions of bucks or WAY LESS DEBT I bet we could PRACTICE MORE because we would have MORE TIME.

Have a happy new year Mudd (you'll be ok)....

jer bear

[joe ashton]

That was a different time and they had different standers...  We can appreciate them without imitating them. Joe

[Mike Mecredy]

I have lots of heros, they've all done great things and they've all made mistakes, and it's because they're all people. David had great faith in God and Great courage, but I don't approve of him sleeping with Batheba then having her Husband murdered.  I used to love watching O.J. Simpson run the football when I was a kid, but I don't approve of his crimes he was accused of. Evil Knevil and his Motor bike jumps he made, but I don't care for the riotous lifestyle he led.  Fred Bear and Howard Hill, I think they were amazing bowhunters and they've done so much for modern archery, but I'd never take some of the long shots they took.  

They're all just people, the took chances they made mistakes, they're all great.  Take the good with the bad.  

But for the most part, I'm with Mudd, I don't like reading about things that get my mind wondering in a bad way about those I look up to. (Example: I like reading about David thwacking Goliath, but not about him having Uriah, one of his most loyal soldiers, murdered). Those archery legends made some amazing shots, and I like reading about those, just not the long shot attempts at animals, weather they were chained to a tree or not.

[frank bullitt]

I started reading this thread, this morning, wow!
It's response from those that don't usually speak, is neat!

My question, is what was those of yesterday think of the way we hunt? Treestands, pop-up blinds, scents, trail cams, etc. etc.

Have we really evolved? They hunted with the bow, when firearms were stirring history!

Read "Hunting with the Bow and Arrow" by Saxton. The Principles of Hunting chapter.

[Gordon martiniuk]

Get a grip on it Mudd;;;; you are old enough to decide what is best for you you know what fishermen stories are like ! some of the stories are streached for sure but George has it right its the time it happened 40s to 50s were a diffrent times for sure archers took greater distance shots in those days and some could shoot well at distance when I started in archery many fellows were shooting and harvesting game at far greater distances than many today would consider today  so... Read into it what you may or not ! but mabe you should just find another sport that does not offend you or your values! I for 1 admire those People and what they did for trad archery      

[Mike Mecredy]

Wow, lots of drama tonight.

[Charlie Lamb]

I understand what you are saying Roy. Let me quote a few lines from the book for you and some others... "In my earlier years of hunting, any animal under 200 yards was close enough for me to shoot at if I could not get closer..."

"... but during that time of silly shooting I lost and broke hundreds of arrows and wounded several animals and birds."

"If all the kills I have made, in shooting big game, were closely estimated, I am sure the average distance would be under 40 yards. As for rabbits, squirrels, and birds, the average would be not more than 20 yards, I am sure."

"Almost all hunters, including the writer, are prone to remember all the long shots ever made, forgetting the short ones; and if we are not careful, the distance gets longer as we grow older."

Heed the lessons of the master and enjoy his adventures. Set your mind free to step into his moccasins and draw his heavy longbow.

My favorite chapters are Small Game hunting Part 1 and 2, and North of 53.

Good stuff!!