draw length obsevation...your opinions please

[Mike Bolin]

I have been looking thru some old photographs from bow shoots and practice sessions over the past few weeks. What I observed in some of these photos got me to thinkin' and I started thumbing thru some old TBMs and some of the photos here on tradgang and some of the other traditional websites.

In a large percentage of the photos, it appears that the shooters were not reaching full draw. I realize that this is somewhat speculative, but in the case of my personal photos of myself and my friends, I am sure of it!

In a couple of cases in TBM, one of the prominent writers was shown at full draw in 7 seperate instances. He had at least 4" of arrow sticking out in front of the bow. I have spoken with this gentleman several times over the years and he has indicated to that he draws 28" and his arrows are cut to 28.5" I am sure that in most cases these photos were "staged" and that they were taken at full draw. Another interesting point is that this gentleman had shoulder issues a few years back and had to drop in bow weight. In more recent photos, with a lighter bow and the field point is buried to the riser. I AM NOT casting stones against this gentleman as I have a tremendous amount of respect for him. What I am saying is I wonder how many of us are shooting the weight we think we are?

Photos of me shooting from just 3 years ago showed 3" of arrow in front of the riser. I thought that I drew 28" and my arrows are 29" to bop. Photos from last season show that my draw length actually increased! Most photos showed less than an inch of arrow in front of the riser, meaning I was drawing over 28". Due to nerve damage issues 2 summers ago, I had to drop bow weight by 7#. If I THOUGHT I was shooting 57-60# at 28" draw a few years ago and I was really only drawing 26" (+or-), I was actually shooting around 53#. I am now shooting 53# at 28.5"(+or-) and even though it is basically the same weight, I have increased my "power stroke".

Out of our group of 10 shooting/hunting buddies, looking at photos from 3+ years ago, only 2 of our group consistantly drew the bow the same length.....and I wasn't one of them!!I have been following some of the recent posts dealing with "what is enough draw weight for...."
and it got me to thinking, which is a dangerous thing! Are we REALLY shooting the weight we THINK we are?

Not trying to start arguments or make anyone mad. I just found it interesting how many in our bunch weren't/aren't drawing as far as we thought. Our group isn't a bunch of rookies. The majority of our group has alot of experience.   Most with 20 or more years experience..... Cloverdale winners, GLLI winners, IBO Triple Crown winners and succesful hunters.

Too much bow weight? Not enough practice? Gettin' old? Gettin' lazy? All of the above?
Food for thought!
Mike

[pdk25]

Good post Mike.  It has been easy for me with the heavier weight bows to get a little hunched and not come to full draw when I am not concentrating.  Since I picked up my 71# @ 28" slammer, I have been much more aware of getting to full draw.  I even practice while looking into a mirror sometimes.  I have arrows that are cut to exactly 29.5" and to ensure that I am coming to full draw, I put a broadhead on and draw until it touches the riser at 29.5".  Hopefully it will become second nature and I won't have too much creep in the future.

[redfish]

I just did a study on that last week on my own draw length.
 I found that my draw length can change considerably depending on my stance or shooting form.
The formulas say that I have a 28-28.5 draw. Straight up and square, I have a 29" to the front (back)of bow. Leaned over and canted, it is down around 27.75"
One problem was a bow that was too short. When pulled to full draw, my fingers were pinching the arrow and resulting in poor releases. I found myself short drawing that bow all the time.

[xtrema312]

I think it is very common from what I have seen.  They are not getting to their draw or at least don't seem to be getting all the draw they can.  I have seen some let loose an arrow shooting more of a snap style and not even get to their face let alone all the way back into good form.

[varmint101]

Mike I think you're very right!  If I do what Terry told me to do I draw an honest 30".  If not, I draw 28.75-29.5!  Consistency is key and I've worked on that a bunch.

[Orion]

Good observation  I think a lot of folks think their draw is longer than it actually is. I don't think it necessarily has to do with bow weight, practice, getting old or lazy, or whatever.  A lot of people simply don't know what it is, or they might measure it with one of those 10-15# "measuring" bows in the archery shop.  Of course, they can really stretch it out there, but then, when they draw a hunting weight bow, their draw shortens.  Regardless of how we measure it, I think we're more likely to stretch it out a little when the only objective of drawing is to measure the draw length  However, when we then shoot repeatedly, we forget about measuring and probably collapse a little. Well, maybe practice and weight do have a little to do with it.  

[owlbait]

Mike, I think my effective bow weight is close to what I use to shoot, 51-53# but I get it from 49-51# bows now instead of 55-59# bows. My draw length is longer due to a shooting clinic with Rod Jenkins. I've steadily dropped bow weight but like you, with the longer draw I get a more efficient powerstroke. I'm actually using the limb as designed for that weight by the bowyer. What a concept. Plus with the new carbon and foam limbs, I feel I get increased performance also.

[Steve O]

Mike, I have noticed that same thing for a LONG time.  I think at least 90% of guys don't draw as far as they think they do.  That is why I use a clicker...I can't figure out how to do it on my own   :confused:    If I shoot w/o my clicker, I draw around 28".  I draw 29.5 when I am "aligned".  I'd like to figure out how to do it wvery time w/o, but the clicker gives me a lot of confidence that I am getting back to the same point each time.  Makes things a lot easier when you are tuning too!

[SL]

28 inches is the average. That means there are just as many drawing under 28 as over. I draw under. I have shot with people who swear they draw over but leave 2inch of my arrow hanging. for some reason drawing under seems like a handicap to them.
Regarding changing draw length with body position..Ive found if I use my knees as an elevation control(bend the front or back knee to shoot up or down hill) my draw stays consistent. If I bend at the waist my draw length will vary.
SL

[lpcjon2]

Imo after I watched some old movies of trad hunters they never held the anchor,as soon as it hit the side of their mouth it was loose.And I notice that at times I will tilt my head a little to forward and if I am bending at the waist it's harder to reach my anchor.

[Robertfishes]

I know I have a tendency to short draw... Helen has me take pics of her shooting at 3D shoots. I don't often get her at full draw, the camera dosen't seem to go off at the right time. I have plenty of pics of her drawing the bow and the follow thru after the shot. I'm doing better with her new camera, it's a lot faster once I push the button.

[X2]

I have seen this for many many years.  I shoot in a lot of shoots, and hear guys all the time say they have a 30 inch draw.  While watching them shoot they have 4 inches hanging over the end of there bows.  Most archers think they have a longer draw than they actually do.  Most measure there draw length while they fully extended and not in there natural shooting form.  Once they are not trying to consciously draw further, they sink into their normal (natural) draw.  Unless you are using some kind of draw length reference (clicker, feather on tip of nose, broadhead touching riser, ect) most traditional archers will have an inconsistent draw length.  At short range it does not matter much, but anything over 25 yards and it will really show up.  Consistency is the key to good shooting.

[Ryan Rothhaar]

Human nature...repetition leading to complacency leading the the body taking a path of least resistance.  Consistent draw length is probably one of the toughest (and more imporant) form flaws to overcome.  The way I try to beat this is with a 2-point anchor - joint where the thumb joins the hand under the back point of the jaw under my ear and middle finger on "that" spot under jawline.  I think I am **ok** at consistency this way, but definitely have to keep tabs on it.

If you watch guys at traditional shoots (as you mentioned in your first post) the amount of arrow hanging out the front can be amazing.....

R

[Clint B.]

I find it amazing that so many guys of average height, shoulder width & arm length on archery websites & in magazines speak of having 31" - 33" draw lengths. I never encountered that phenomenom in the old days. Maybe it's because arrows have only just recently become avilable to accomodate such long draws. Still, there was a reason that the amo standard for draw length was set at 28". I'm not disputing anybody's word on how far they draw their bows, but I'm from Missouri & you kow what they say about us.

[SL]

I agree with the refereces above regarding a clicker. Set up correctly it will really make a difference.It can be a real eye opener.
SL

[Hud]

Mike,
I like to cut arrows with FP or blunts so it drawn to the shelf with my longbow or recurve. Broadheads are 3/4" longer and touch my index finger. If you shoot arrows too long, you have no way to check periodically. I make it a point not to look at the point, except to check once or twice in practice. Good Post.Barry

[xtrema312]

After finding some draw length my arrows went all the way to the riser.  With a hex head it would move a little in my vision when I expanded for the shot and it was just hitting the riser.  I think shooting that way for the past month helped set my draw length better.  Just like a clicker would.  Now with longer arrows I find myself trying to pull to the end of the arrow and can't get there because it is 1 1/2" longer, but I feel the back tension trying to get there.

[Renaissance Man]

An observation I have made over the years teaching and watching trad shooters is this, if you are repeativly shooting arrows you tend to hunch or collapse your back muscles and your draw length obviously shortens.
When I first started seriously shooting longbows and recurves and had the good fortune to have some gentlemen around who helped me out they taught me one thing that changed that collapse or hunch for good.
You do not pull back the string with your arm and hand.
Focus instead with each draw on pulling your elbow back like you are trying to elbow somebody behind you. Your hand is simply a hook for the string.Once I started focusing on this many years ago my release became very crisp, when I pulled thru (pulling the elbow) on the release my arm came straight back in line with the arrow, my draw length became very consistent and my arrow flight improved dramatically. Even when I would shoot mismatched arrows from the random arrow barrel.
Try it, maybe it will help some of the issues you are discussing here and some other posts.

[Old York]

When I first started using a clicker, I was amazed at how wrong it could be at times  

[Rob DiStefano]

too many folks are short drawing and not feeling the back tension settle in.  

then there's always that phrase, 'switching to trad shortens your draw length' - well, that's almost always true if yer going from a release aid but not at all true if yer a finger shooter.

if ya look at terry's draw/hold pics, that's a complete draw with back tension.  that's the consistent way to hold an arrow under tension.