Mountain goats and management

[Daz]

I was having a conversation with a fellow hunter (non-archery) about mountain goat hunting and populations. The MoE here in BC is getting more and more concerned about the harvest of nannys during both draw and open seasons due to low kid production and population drop.

Goat tags are for adults, with no specification for billy only, but the MoE strongly requests that nannys not be taken, especially if positive ID is made (as it should be anyway)

My question is, as trad-hunters we tend to have a philosophy of "any animal taken is a trophy", but if it is legal to take a nanny but from a management strategy not desirable, do we have more or less of an obligation to "do the right thing" and only take a billy?

[FerretWYO]

as hunters period we have the obligation to do the RIGHT thing. If it is a request from the MoE I think that I would to try and take a billy. I would see it as the correct thing as well as in the best interest of hunting.

A local example here in wyoming is the black bear and mountian lion season. We hunt on a mortality quota. Once so many female are harvested the season is closed. Most dedicated hunters in todays enviroment(it took a while for the hunting population to adjust to this season type) will do there best to be educated and evaluate the animals and not take females.

[FerretWYO]

I will add one more thing.

It is evident that in areas where people kill lots of female black bears(this tends to be outfitter who let there huters shoot young bears in the name of money) the population will show a steep decline in that area. I would expect that you would see that happen with mountian goats as well.

[LKH]

In parts of AK they have a new reg which states that if you kill a Nanny you can't get another tag for 5 years.  

The demographics of taking a nanny out of a herd are really alarming.  It knocks out a lot more than one, especially if you look 4-5 years out.

[FerretWYO]

I like that idea I wish that we could do that to bear hunters here.

As for mountian goat in wyoming you only get one in your life time so I guess that stops that.

[twitchstick]

I would have to agree with ferret we as hunters have to take the higher ground. I do understand thou,the goat hunt I have been putting in for was a nanny hunt. This year it's been canceled,that makes it much harder to draw. But if the herd can't afford it either can we.

[Daz]

My thoughts are the same, in that we don't seem to be able to be seen as responsible stewards of the land if we don't look long term at proper management goals, regardless of our weapons of choice.

There just tends to be a core group of hunters (in all camps, not just trad) that are more short term/outcome focused and a filled tag is all that seems to matter.

Here in certain draw zones, if you are an archery hunter, you actually get to begin your hunt nine days earlier than everyne else. I know that two management areas in particular have seen quite a few nannies taken by archers in the last couple of years, and i have the feeling that choice of tackle is seen as justification for harvesting any adult.

I am always aware of how incredibly lucky i am to live where i not only get to see and hunt the variety of wildlife that i do, and i also know how delicate that population balance can be (my local goat herd was wiped out fifteen years ago by nanny harvest).

It does my heart good to know that there are others who appreciate these places and the animals who live there as much as i do.

[Ragnarok Forge]

Kinda tough to tell the difference when they are in winter coats.  Archers of course have an easier time of it since we get close.  Rifle hunters normally are to far away to tell the difference.

We have to draw in Washington state and the permits are limited so if you do harvest a female it won't kill off the population.  Plus goats are increasing right now.  

On the question at hand, if requested by the state to hold off on nanny's, I would say that yes an ethical hunter will do what is best for the animals, no matter if it is legal or not.  What is legal, and what is ethical are two very different things.

[FerretWYO]

Originally posted by Ragnarok Forge:
 What is legal, and what is ethical are two very different things.

I think that this states it very well.

[The Ursus]

Originally posted by Daz:
as trad-hunters we tend to have a philosophy of "any animal taken is a trophy", but if it is legal to take a nanny but from a management strategy not desirable, do we have more or less of an obligation to "do the right thing" and only take a billy?

I don't think your style of hunting (trad or not)should be able to justify right or wrong.  
On another note, I do believe a billy makes a much finer trophy and are just as tough eating as the nannies.

[Daz]

Our local herd that has since been extirpated was managed using a draw tag system as well.
Talkng to the local greaybeards, there was no understanding at that time as to the long term effects of nanny harvest.

It almost seems that the OTC areas (because of the huge effort involved in hunting them) are better managed than the draw zones, which tend to be a little easier to access, and are therefore more desirable.


The thoughts of ethics versus law really are the heart of the matter though.

[R.W.]

The sh*tty thing about the "limited entry draws" in BC, is that resident hunters must go into the "draw" and the guide/outfitters are granted a PERCENTAGE of the available tags.

I am told that the guide/outfitter PERCENTAGE is being considered for a raise.

If this isn't "managing for profit" I don't know what is.

While "most" goat hunters would hold out for a  Billy, those who have paid a wad of cash for a guided hunt may not be so inclined, if the trip in question is the "hunt of a lifetime" and a guide is telling him/her "There is your animal, if you don't take the shot, too bad for you."

[Steve H.]

Goat are hard to judge sex for especially first timers which is most goat hunters.  

Interestingly, I proposed to the AK BOG the no goat tag for several years if you shot a nanny rule about 3 years ago....

[HornHunter]

it really makes a difference where your hunting, here in Co, we encourage hunters to take nannys because all the billys are getting whacked, we have some P&Y nannys running around, in fact my last goat hunt I saw a nanny that was at least 10" I would have taken her in a heart beat.

there was talk this year of some nanny only tags

so if your herd needs balanced dont think a nannys is any less of a trophy, besides a goat tag here is about once in a lifetime draw anymore trust me a 10" nanny looks pretty good next to a 7" billy