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Author Topic: arrow physics 2  (Read 5125 times)

Offline Kenneth

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Re: arrow physics 2
« Reply #80 on: January 21, 2010, 02:06:00 PM »
I'll take the heavy arrow with high FOC anyday over speed.  Even with my wheelie bow my buddies looked at me like I was crazy when I was getting my arrows built up.  They said "that's gonna be moving so slow it's gonna bounce off the target by the time it gets there."  Well when my arrow blew through the Block target at 40yds and they're lightweight arrows going 300+ fps only penetrated a few inches they were shocked.  Oh and my bow was whisper quiet compared to theirs.
Chasing my kids and my degree for now but come next fall the critters better look out.  ;)

Offline Bill Carlsen

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Re: arrow physics 2
« Reply #81 on: January 21, 2010, 02:07:00 PM »
I do no disagree with the premise that a heavier arrow will result in a quieter shooting situation. However, it has almost always been my experience that the fist and foremost factor in good shooting and quieter shooting is perfect tuning of the bow and arrow. Get the brace correct, the nocking point correct, the spine correct, correct and consistent form, a smooth crisp release and you will be surprised at how quiet and how little it may matter in terms of quiet shooting. Far too many bowhunters use the heavy arrow to quiet their bows rather than putting in the extra effort it would take to tune the set up in the first place. It is almost like having to put too much feather on a shaft to get it to shoot properly when the real problem is you need to find a better, more suitable shaft for you setup.
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Online Rob DiStefano

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Re: arrow physics 2
« Reply #82 on: January 21, 2010, 02:14:00 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Don Stokes:
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Offline Kenneth

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Re: arrow physics 2
« Reply #83 on: January 21, 2010, 02:34:00 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Bill Carlsen:
I do no disagree with the premise that a heavier arrow will result in a quieter shooting situation. However, it has almost always been my experience that the fist and foremost factor in good shooting and quieter shooting is perfect tuning of the bow and arrow. Get the brace correct, the nocking point correct, the spine correct, correct and consistent form, a smooth crisp release and you will be surprised at how quiet and how little it may matter in terms of quiet shooting. Far too many bowhunters use the heavy arrow to quiet their bows rather than putting in the extra effort it would take to tune the set up in the first place. It is almost like having to put too much feather on a shaft to get it to shoot properly when the real problem is you need to find a better, more suitable shaft for you setup.
Bill,  I agree that a properly tuned bow and arrow combo will be quieter than an untuned.  But if all things are equal and both the lighter and heavier arrow are tuned well then the heavier will absorb more of the bows energy and will in turn be quieter every time.
Chasing my kids and my degree for now but come next fall the critters better look out.  ;)

Offline Richie Nell

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Re: arrow physics 2
« Reply #84 on: January 21, 2010, 03:22:00 PM »
The difference between shooting a well tuned light arrow and a well tuned heavy arrow is the heavy arrow will kill anything the light arrow will but the light arrow will NOT kill everything the heavy arrow will.

And regardless of how quiet the light arrow bow shoots...the heavy arrow bow is quieter.
Richie Nell

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Offline ChuckC

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Re: arrow physics 2
« Reply #85 on: January 22, 2010, 08:21:00 AM »
Rob...  I seriously don't know (which would likely penetrate that target).  That one wasn't researched...yet.   You can also look at it from another point of view that at our ranges, the faster  (lighter) arrow will get thee quicker and there will have been less movement incurred.

There are a ton of variables in these equations, many of them external to the shooting itself.  

What if a gust of breeze hits just prior to the arrow hitting,  should we have been shooting small feathers,  which are less affected but don't correct arrow flight as quickly,  or should we stick with 5.5" super fletch, which will allow you to shoot nearly any arrow and get past nearly any shooting flaw, but are very affected by breeze.  There goes arrow flight.

There are a dozen more factors to consider beyond that.
ChuckC

Offline Dr. Ed Ashby

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Re: arrow physics 2
« Reply #86 on: January 24, 2010, 12:48:00 PM »
Here's one to chew over. It is POSSIBLE (and, actually easy) to have a heavier arrow that shoots as flat, or even flatter than a lighter weight arrow! And that is when both are fired with the same launching force.

I just returned from doing a presentation at the ATA show. I was really pleased with how well the presentation went over with everyone attending – and even many who didn’t attend, but who heard about it from those who did attend. The trip was somewhat of an ordeal. On the way up I was only able to drive about 3 hours a day before becoming too exhausted to continue. By the time I headed back I was able to drive seven hours a day, so it looks like the after-effects of the radiation treatments are finally beginning to wear off a bit.

At any rate, I had a little demonstration in the presentation that I'd set up to show folks the effect on arrow flight that EFOC makes. It was a short, rubber tipped arrow with a movable rubber weight. By sliding the weight up or down on the shaft I could shoot the arrow at 6%, 11% and 24% FOC, without the mass of the arrow changing.

I pre-selected and marked the positions for the rubber weight for those specific amounts of FOC. Only a few compound shooters use over 6% FOC, and most use less than 6%. A typical traditional wood shaft with most commonly used broadheads show about 11% FOC. 24% FOC was with the weight as far forward on the shaft as I could slide it.

By using the same launching force and shooting angle on each shot I could demonstrate how much arrow energy is CONSERVED by using EFOC, and also demonstrate that front-weighted EFOC arrow DO NOT nose dive - indeed, they fly both flatter and farther than an arrow OF EQUAL MASS but with a lower amount of FOC. (Just as O.L. has repeatedly proven with his record-setting flight arrows.)

The small shaft was unfletched and, of course, the flight at 6% FOC was TERRIBLE, and it flew about half the length of the lecture hall. At 11% FOC it flew somewhat better, and traveled a bit over 60% of the length of the lecture hall. At 24% FOC the flight was great, and the small arrow HIT THE WALL at the far end of the lecture hall with a resounding thump! You could actually hear the collective gasp of the folks in the audience.

That simple demonstration became the talk of the entire convention - even among folks who hadn't attended, but who heard about it from those who had attended. During the balance of the day of the presentation and the next day I had a number of compound shooters tell me that they had changed to EFOC arrow and, to their amazement, had discovered that the EFOC arrows, though heavier than thier ususal, lower FOC arrows, were shooting flatter at long range. This they each had discovered because they were expecting to have to move thier sight pins DOWN (aim higher) with their new, heavier arrows, but ended up having to moving their sight pins UP (aim lower)!

Based on the information from several of the compound shooters who appeared to have done more extensive investigation of EFOC on their arrows it appears that the 'break even point' was around 150 to 175 grains of increase in total arrow mass. That is; when changing from a low FOC (which was usually around 5%-6%) to EFOC around 24%-25% they each had found that an increase in arrow weight for the EFOC setup of about 150-175 grains resulted in the SAME SIGHT SETTINGS (same point of impact) at 20, 30 and 40 yards as they had been getting with their 'customary arrows'.

This would make an interesting investigation with a shooting machine! After the ATA presentation, there is one thing I know for sure; we're beginning to make real inroads into the bowhunting public (FINALLY!.  :)   )
Ed

Offline Kenneth

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Re: arrow physics 2
« Reply #87 on: January 24, 2010, 01:04:00 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Dr. Ed Ashby:
Here's one to chew over. It is POSSIBLE (and, actually easy) to have a heavier arrow that shoots as flat, or even flatter than a lighter weight arrow! And that is when both are fired with the same launching force.

I just returned from doing a presentation at the ATA show. I was really pleased with how well the presentation went over with everyone attending – and even many who didn’t attend, but who heard about it from those who did attend. The trip was somewhat of an ordeal. On the way up I was only able to drive about 3 hours a day before becoming too exhausted to continue. By the time I headed back I was able to drive seven hours a day, so it looks like the after-effects of the radiation treatments are finally beginning to wear off a bit.

At any rate, I had a little demonstration in the presentation that I'd set up to show folks the effect on arrow flight that EFOC makes. It was a short, rubber tipped arrow with a movable rubber weight. By sliding the weight up or down on the shaft I could shoot the arrow at 6%, 11% and 24% FOC, without the mass of the arrow changing.

I pre-selected and marked the positions for the rubber weight for those specific amounts of FOC. Only a few compound shooters use over 6% FOC, and most use less than 6%. A typical traditional wood shaft with most commonly used broadheads show about 11% FOC. 24% FOC was with the weight as far forward on the shaft as I could slide it.

By using the same launching force and shooting angle on each shot I could demonstrate how much arrow energy is CONSERVED by using EFOC, and also demonstrate that front-weighted EFOC arrow DO NOT nose dive - indeed, they fly both flatter and farther than an arrow OF EQUAL MASS but with a lower amount of FOC. (Just as O.L. has repeatedly proven with his record-setting flight arrows.)

The small shaft was unfletched and, of course, the flight at 6% FOC was TERRIBLE, and it flew about half the length of the lecture hall. At 11% FOC it flew somewhat better, and traveled a bit over 60% of the length of the lecture hall. At 24% FOC the flight was great, and the small arrow HIT THE WALL at the far end of the lecture hall with a resounding thump! You could actually hear the collective gasp of the folks in the audience.

That simple demonstration became the talk of the entire convention - even among folks who hadn't attended, but who heard about it from those who had attended. During the balance of the day of the presentation and the next day I had a number of compound shooters tell me that they had changed to EFOC arrow and, to their amazement, had discovered that the EFOC arrows, though heavier than thier ususal, lower FOC arrows, were shooting flatter at long range. This they each had discovered because they were expecting to have to move thier sight pins DOWN (aim higher) with their new, heavier arrows, but ended up having to moving their sight pins UP (aim lower)!

Based on the information from several of the compound shooters who appeared to have done more extensive investigation of EFOC on their arrows it appears that the 'break even point' was around 150 to 175 grains of increase in total arrow mass. That is; when changing from a low FOC (which was usually around 5%-6%) to EFOC around 24%-25% they each had found that an increase in arrow weight for the EFOC setup of about 150-175 grains resulted in the SAME SIGHT SETTINGS (same point of impact) at 20, 30 and 40 yards as they had been getting with their 'customary arrows'.

This would make an interesting investigation with a shooting machine! After the ATA presentation, there is one thing I know for sure; we're beginning to make real inroads into the bowhunting public (FINALLY!.   :)    )
Ed
:thumbsup:  Finally is right Doc!  Great Job!!!   :clapper:    :clapper:    :clapper:    :clapper:
Chasing my kids and my degree for now but come next fall the critters better look out.  ;)

Offline Richie Nell

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Re: arrow physics 2
« Reply #88 on: January 24, 2010, 01:49:00 PM »
Dr. Ashby,
That is what I asked you about awhile back when I thought I may be hallucinating.  
That is definitely what I see in the flight of my 1000 grainers with 31% Ultra-EFOC.  They fly like a 750 grainer but quieter and with a bit more clout.

Thanks again for your work.
Richie Nell

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Offline Dr. Ed Ashby

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Re: arrow physics 2
« Reply #89 on: January 24, 2010, 02:19:00 PM »
Richie,

It all just stands to reason. The outcome with this simple demonstration arrow setup logically implies that the energy previously wasted by an arrow with low FOC (and now being conserved by an arrow of higher FOC) can be usefully applied to propell a heavier, higher FOC arrow with a trojectory that is equally as flat as that of the lighter, lower FOC arrow.

Also, it must be remembered that the heavier arrow will retain its velocity better than a lighter arrow, continually gaining ground - velocity wise - against a lighter arrow as the range increases AND, the higher FOC arrow also stabalizes with less fletching, which translates to less drag during flight, which also aids velocity retentuion.

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Offline SteveB

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Re: arrow physics 2
« Reply #90 on: January 24, 2010, 03:23:00 PM »
Any arrow with poor flight will not shoot as far as one with good flight. 6% arrows can fly extremely well. Changing nothing but the foc has to alter the dynamic spine therefore changing flight characteristics.

Offline Jim now in Kentucky

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Re: arrow physics 2
« Reply #91 on: January 24, 2010, 03:59:00 PM »
To give credit where credit is due, the FOC demonstration above is a simple example of the results of very extensive testing By C.N. Hickman done with a shooting machine and reported in Archery Review of February 1934.

Those who will not study history feel compelled to discover everything all over again...
"Reparrows save arrows!"

"But without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he that cometh to God must believe that he is and that He is a rewarder of them that diligently seek Him." Hebrews 11:6

Offline Richie Nell

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Re: arrow physics 2
« Reply #92 on: January 24, 2010, 04:07:00 PM »
If I am understanding this correctly, a well tuned 6% will not fly well AS FAR as a well tuned 26% arrow.  This is because of the location of the weight.  The weight is pulling and not pushing the arrow.

Not exact but maybe similiar;
A rear wheel drive vehicle inefficiently pushes the front of the vehicle around and eventually into a ditch on a muddy dirt road.  

The front wheel drive vehicle steers itself more efficiently and is going to stay in the road better than the rear wheel drive.
Richie Nell

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Offline Richie Nell

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Re: arrow physics 2
« Reply #93 on: January 24, 2010, 04:12:00 PM »
Jim,
You are amazing.
Richie Nell

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Offline Jason R. Wesbrock

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Re: arrow physics 2
« Reply #94 on: January 24, 2010, 04:23:00 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by SteveB:
6% arrows can fly extremely well.  
Absolutely. 3D shooters don't seem to have a problem hitting X rings at 50 and 60 yards with low FOC arrows. If someone feels that they need to go to extremes with respect to FOC for accuracy at bowhunting distances, I'd venture to say that their accuracy problem has nothing to do with the balance point of their arrows.   ;)

Offline Jim now in Kentucky

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Re: arrow physics 2
« Reply #95 on: January 24, 2010, 04:34:00 PM »
Sorry
"Reparrows save arrows!"

"But without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he that cometh to God must believe that he is and that He is a rewarder of them that diligently seek Him." Hebrews 11:6

Offline Dr. Ed Ashby

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Re: arrow physics 2
« Reply #96 on: January 24, 2010, 06:48:00 PM »
Yes, 6% FOC arrows can fly extremely well ... IF they have sufficient drag from the fletching to overcome the inherant instability of a flying object having a FOC of only 6%. Therein lies the difference. There is a huge energy loss in compensating for the inate instability of a low FOC projectile in flight. It's the same for aircraft. Why do gliders have their wings (and the cockpit and pilot) positioned as far forward as possible? For greater flight stability and maximum use of any available propulsion. Why does the Raptor have a neutral FOC? Greater maneuverability, albet at instability in flight so great that a human cannot fly it without computer assist.

Ed

Offline SteveB

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Re: arrow physics 2
« Reply #97 on: January 24, 2010, 07:04:00 PM »
Changing the dynamic spine to cause erratic flight makes it less then an apples to apples comparison. By only using one arrow, 2 changes are being done - foc and dynamic spine. It would seem that to be relative, 2 arrows of the same wght and same dynamic spine, with the only the foc being different should be used.

Offline vtmtnman

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Re: arrow physics 2
« Reply #98 on: January 24, 2010, 07:33:00 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Zradix:
Thanks for all the help guys. Yeah I have to admit I'm a little worried about overkill. Don't need to use an elephant gun on a mouse. I'm wondering if the 10gn/# will pass thru just like the 13 on whitetails.
Without reading all the responses in this thread,9gpp out of my 50# bear grizzly will not only pass thru a whitetail,it will zip through.You should have no issues with either of those from your bow.
>>>>--TGMM family of the bow--->

Offline Jason R. Wesbrock

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Re: arrow physics 2
« Reply #99 on: January 24, 2010, 07:33:00 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Dr. Ed Ashby:
Yes, 6% FOC arrows can fly extremely well ... IF they have sufficient drag from the fletching to overcome the inherant instability of a flying object having a FOC of only 6%.
Just for the sake of discussion; the 3D shooters I was referring to (compounds, obviously) shoot vanes 2" or less in length -- not a lot of drag. Even FITA shooters who use the standard recommended 11-16 percent FOC use tiny vanes.  

If you don't mind, could you please explain how the tuning issues Steve describes did or did not come into play in your demonstration? It seems like the results were more about a tuned versus untuned bare shaft than they were about FOC alone.

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