Total desperation checking in! Getting near now - Problem solving slowly (pg.3)

[xtrema312]

What do you have for a strike plate?  Can you go thinner?

Also how long are these inserts?  Do the weights fit tight in the shaft wall?  Could it be you have a long insert set-up and you are stiffening the arrow more than the calculator is figuring?  I reduce my  shaft length in the calculator 1/4" for 100 brass over standard and 50 brass to equal things out.

You can always use these on the curve if the LB will not tune for you.

I have some 350's also and I plan to start working on them tomorrow with about the same bow weight, draw and arrow length.  I was going to start long with a target length of about 31" and 225 gr. up front.  I guess I will find out how these match up to the calculator soon.  Based on my 400 spine arrow set-up I should be good.  We will see.

[Ragnarok Forge]

From personal experience, you are way to stiff with that spine for those bow weights.  I went thru a lot of different shafts and spine weights recently only to find out my 55lb R/D longbow at a 30.25 inch draw can shoot 500 spine arrows ok and 600 spine arrows perfect.  All of this with 400 or 300 grains for those spines up front.  You need to drop two spine groups for the longbow and a one to 1.5 spine groups for the recurve get things to work.  OH, and for me I would drop most of what your doing and stick to bare shaft versus fletched tuning.  Are your fletchings showing any wear? If so your hitting the riser / shelf and that would definately indicate a stiff arrow.

I think Terry has your best bet.  Use the tapered shafts and you will be able to get the arrows to shoot out of both bows.

[xtrema312]

No offence Ragnarok, but a 600 spine arrow over 31" long for broad head clerance and 300 gr. on the front is like a dynamic spine of about 22#.  You can find a 600 spine arrow 31" long?  Some arrows I look at don't come in 31" long in a 500 spine.

I have shoot a 500 30" drawn to 30" with 225-245 on the front.  Bare shaft shot in the group, but the point drags the shaft like a bowling ball with a stirng on it.  The shaft doen't fry straight.  It is weak all the way.  The shaft just can't correct the point.

[doctari]

Tell me or maybe pinch me why I love this site. The outpouring of help and giving from our trad brothers is over the top.      

[RUSTY1]

I agree! Terry, Jerry, very nice gesture!

[Charlie Lamb]

Guys... if you try to reach Terry by PM you might not get through. I believe his PM box is not activated. Probably take an Email.

Saumensch... you're gonna need around 250-300 grains total on the front for that arrow. Forget the paper tune thing and which way the arrows tail and just pay attention to how the bareshafts and fletched shafts group.

Ten to fifteen yards minimum for distance.

[Terry Green]

I'm away from email till tomorrow afternoon. Yeah. We are leaving off the insert and including a brass insert.

[Traditional-Archer]

Terry and Jerry you guys are true sportsmen.
         

[Oregon Okie]

I still say the 350 is the way to go. I got some .300 spines finally so I could get the point weight up. No way a 150 with that length.
Second.. where are you guys buying single or small orders of AD's and such. I've wanted to try 'em but wanted a small batch to start with.. and don't send me stuff I just want to know where I can get 1-3 shafts.
good luck Axel. I feel your pain for sure.

[flatlander37]

I'm with Mike on this one.  If I read your original post correctly it sounded like the arrow was acting a bit stiff, but heck I'm still a rookie at this!  Mark

[George D. Stout]

The 350's are much too stiff unless you really overload the front.  I'm in agreement that 150's with the 125 grain heads at that length will be near perfect.  Most problems come from carbon arrows that are too stiff for the setup and it seems to be an epidemic nowadays.

You will love the AD that Terry is sending you, it's the only carbon that I haven't been able to break.  Guess I have to buy some of them one of these days 8^).

[Shakes.602]

I have said this Many times before, and I  NEVER  Get Tired of Saying It!      

[Ragnarok Forge]

Extrema.  No offense taken, I am always open to questions and willing to listen and do the research to determine if I am wrong.  

You can get 32 inch, Trad Only 600 spine carbons from 3 Rivers Archery ( sponsor ).  The EFOC that I am ending up with on my arrows seems to allow them fly great out of my bow.  Using 500 spine AXIS FMJ"S at full length with 400 grains up front, I can get my fletched shaft groups to hit 2 inches left of my bare shafts consistently with 500's at 31 inches. This isn't one or two groups, it is every group I shoot.  I am a right handed shooter.   The 600's at 31 inches with 300 up front have the bare shafts hitting right with the fletched shafts.

I am no pro here, but all the hands on research I am doing seems to indicate that a lot of archers are shooting carbon arrows that are way over spined.

[Oregon Okie]

Ragnarok. Is your bow center shot or not. Just curious. that could make a big difference if we are all comparing apples and oranges anyway.

[tyee]

If I was trying to do what you are I would gat some 2117 31" 145 grns for the bear and and 125 for the Lee also you might want to use b50 on the lee and see what happen remember dont choke the grip and I think you will be fine

[Ragnarok Forge]

Oregon Oakie.  It is a Wes Wallace Royal, I belive it is 3/16 out of center. So not center shot.

[saumensch]

xtrema,

i dont have a full length shaft anymore    

i use the strike plate that comes with the Bair Hair rest and i could only go 1/32 maybe less thinner.(smallest strike plate version, not the build out)

Those screw ins fit tight in the shaft and create length like 100 brass inserts would do with 100 grain, more weight makes em longers still.


To All:
Thanks so much, you are the BEST!

[leatherneck]

Originally posted by Terry Green:
"Big Goal: shooting same arrow out of both"

Its worked for me and MANY other's that shoot Arrow Dynamics Trads. Just do a search and you will find out that this shaft shoots out of multiple set ups on a VERY regular basis.

I think I have a AD Trad that's 30 inches BOP....if you can shoot that length...I'll send it to ya.

I shoot my AD out of all my bows ranging from 58 to 70 pounds with what ever head I want from 150 to 225 grains out of all those bows as well.

Email me your address if that length will work. I'll also remeasure it to see if its not longer.  And if it wont, and you are that desperate....I'll GET you one at the length that will work.

Saumensch, I'm here to tell you brother, he knows what he's talking about. About 2-3 years ago Terry sent me an AD shaft and I haven't looked back!! I shoot mine from both my Morrison Recurve and my MOAB longbow. Only difference is the point weight. My recurve prefers the heavier 160 snuffer and my MOAB likes the 125. Other than that, they are the same shaft. It's hard to get an arrow to fly from both bows the same. But if it can be done, an AD arrow will do it.

 
Send me your addy. I've got plenty of brass inserts for the Ad's and I'll get them to ya. Inserts covered folks, now who has some points? I've got plenty of 250 field points if thats what is needed. If I'm sending a package then mide as well be a good one!!!

[LimbLover]

I bought 3 dozen arrows - changing shafts 3 times before I finally settled on a setup. Never EVER give up!

You learn so much by going through all of this stuff in the end and you are in great hands. These guys know their stuff!

[saumensch]

Now its get a bit embarassing-FOR ME!

with all the advice and kind words from above i made a plan for today.

I totally went back to zero, starting at the 13 grain insert building up and at 1/16 cc again. I always made 4 rounds of 4fletched and 4unflethced arrows at a time and then paused for half an hour. I made drawings of every grouping. I went back to 15 then 18 meters, groups got bigger but more readable. I did NOT continue paper testing and loocking on the nocks.
AND MOSTLY i concentrated on every shot as if it would be the one big-buck-shot. And i tried the approach i received via pm, turned down the lights a bit so that i was not seeing exactly where my last arrow hit and i would not make mental adjustments but shoot consistent at the same point of aim (big problem for me).

The outcome:
Best groupings i had at 113 grain inserts, bareshafts and fletched ones together.

Seems like the weak indicating i had the whole time was partly because of me hurrying through the shots and not concentrating enough.

Then i shot the same setup out of the recurve, they went perfect, even more perfect than with the LB.

To confirm my findings i then started broadhead tuning with 4 x magnus 2 blades and 4 x field points. This indicated again perfect flight with the recurve but a slightly weak arrow for the longbow.

I then build the side plate out again to 1/8 past center and started all over with bareshafting again after the broadhead test indicated it was good like that.

Then i stopped, my arms get tired and i cant shoot consistent enough any more, concentration went down.

I think i am getting near now but will leave it until tomorrow.

Big Conclusion for me is: The main problem was placed behind the bow!

I am so thankfull about all youre help!
As it seems i will come to a positive ending sometime soon,

When it arrives i will test the AD from Terry and if this is the big solution i will have to order from the US. I checked all internetshops in Germany and as i thought, no one sells ADs, only CX, ICS, and mostly Easton and GoldTip and the one or other very expensive Grizzly Stick.

One thing i know for sure is after testing the arrow from Terry will get a place at my wall to always remind me that with kindness, generosity and help, you can make so much of a difference for people with problems.

                       

Ill keep posting how it will go on tomorrow.