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Author Topic: Help with penetration  (Read 1876 times)

Offline Richie Nell

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Re: Help with penetration
« Reply #100 on: January 25, 2010, 10:26:00 PM »
Jason,
NOONE has said there is a guarantee...so what is your point?  It is about increasing your chances of killing an animal when you hit big bone.

Do you think the Ashby recommendations will increase your chances of recovering an animal after a big bone hit?

I agree with you about the "bad" gut shot. It does seem that a larger broadhead may be better.


I ask you again:

 
Quote
Jason, what bow/arrow setup do you use that is better and more lethal on big bones than what is recommended in Dr. Ed's reports? And where can I get a setup just like it?
Richie Nell

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Offline Ladams

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Re: Help with penetration
« Reply #101 on: January 25, 2010, 10:34:00 PM »
I didnt read them all but that is very interesting Curt.
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Offline ChuckC

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Re: Help with penetration
« Reply #102 on: January 25, 2010, 11:33:00 PM »
As I stated in another thread, I love Ed's work and read it religiously.  Then I sit and think about it and make my own decisions.

I am guessing that those dead critters that he is repeatedly shooting with his test arrows don't have a lot of tendency to jump the string, or move in much of any way.  Any movement of the deer deflects the path of the arrow and your perfect flight goes down the tubes.  A pefectly still deer whose shoulder blade moves (as does the deer when it gets knocked back) from a solid shoulder hit deflects the arrow, there goes perfect arrow flight.  

A shoulder BLADE hit, from the ground typically means the arrow is going into an area of the deer that does not have lungs and heart and even chest cavity behind it, same with some shots from above.  It is just a bad placement, period.  As was stated in prior threads, a deer's movement for escape will take it down then away (forward or to spin) meaning you are much more likely to hit back than front of the diaphram.  Most of us are taught to aim too far back in the first place, meaning that "perfect hit" is really already too far back.    

Richie, although Ed has dabbled into lighter set ups more recently (thank you ED), Ed's bow and arrow and broadhead set up were WAY.. repeat  WAY heavier and had WAY more mechanical advantage than what we typically discuss here.
ChuckC

Offline Rob DiStefano

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Re: Help with penetration
« Reply #103 on: January 26, 2010, 05:23:00 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Guru:
Some interesting reading for those that have some time.....

   http://tradgang.com/noncgi/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=1;t=068449#000000  
one of THE best threads on trad gang.      :thumbsup:      :thumbsup:

pretty much required reading for all, imho.
IAM ~ The only government I trust is my .45-70 ... and my 1911.

Offline Str8Arrow

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Re: Help with penetration
« Reply #104 on: January 26, 2010, 11:42:00 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Jason R. Wesbrock:

2. There have been many folks here (Curt, Terry, Charlie, Ryan for example) who have made excellent cases for large, multi-blade heads in the event that said bad shot is behind the diaphragm.
I've always been under the impression that a gut-shot was a dead animal. When I was young, I lost a couple because I couldn't find them, not because they didn't die. Once I learned to sneak away and come back 12 hours later, I found them all. Are you guys finding that some survive a gut-shot with a small broadhead?

 
Quote
Originally posted by ChuckC: A shoulder BLADE hit, from the ground typically means the arrow is going into an area of the deer that does not have lungs and heart and even chest cavity behind it, same with some shots from above.
Once again, I'm not finding this to be the norm, but it does depend on the angle of the animal to the arrow's line of flight. I've killed many from the ground where the arrow went through the scapula and killed the animal quickly. Depending on the angle, vitals can definitely be in the line of flight. Maybe I'm just lucky, or maybe it's because I tend to shoot FOCs over 25% and arrow weights around 12-14 grains per pound. Point is - I don't worry about gut-shots - those are dead animals. I do worry about shoulder hits and do what I can reasonably do to increase the odds of getting through it.

Offline Richie Nell

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Re: Help with penetration
« Reply #105 on: January 26, 2010, 12:28:00 PM »
Str8arrow,
It sounds to me like you have made preparations for human error and now have nothing to worry about except freezer room.

I want to be like you one day.
Richie Nell

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Offline George D. Stout

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Re: Help with penetration
« Reply #106 on: January 26, 2010, 12:43:00 PM »
From str8arrow,

"I've killed many from the ground where the arrow went through the scapula and killed the animal quickly."

So you aren't opposed to taking bad angle shots?
The archer is in charge of the angle...not the deer.  Approaching angle....I pass, and that is the only angle that includes the fore side scapula.  

So are you guys okay with just going ahead now and shooting into heavy bone, bucause you think it is okay?

Richie....I haven't had any bad hits for thirty plus years because I choose not to.  It's a choice...even for big tough guys who shoot heavy bows and single bevels.  One doesn't have to take a risky shot.  An experienced hunter, can choose his angle....but he has to forego the shot if everything isn't perfect in his mind.  That's how I do it.  So your sarcasm holds no quarter with me.  Choices....that's what it's about...not brute power and suspect shots.

Offline Jason R. Wesbrock

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Re: Help with penetration
« Reply #107 on: January 26, 2010, 01:00:00 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Str8Arrow:
 
Quote
Originally posted by Jason R. Wesbrock:

2. There have been many folks here (Curt, Terry, Charlie, Ryan for example) who have made excellent cases for large, multi-blade heads in the event that said bad shot is behind the diaphragm.
I've always been under the impression that a gut-shot was a dead animal. When I was young, I lost a couple because I couldn't find them, not because they didn't die. Once I learned to sneak away and come back 12 hours later, I found them all. Are you guys finding that some survive a gut-shot with a small broadhead?

  [/b]
You are correct; a gut shot is a dead animal. But blood trailing them is where the difficulty can lie. It’s been said on threads such as these that no one ever hits a shoulder blade and wishes they had a bigger broadhead. I agree. I’ve also heard it said that no one ever gut or paunch shoots an animal and wishes they had used a smaller broadhead. I agree with that too.

Broadhead selection is somewhat of a “pick your poison” situation. Some folks are worried about bad hits involving heavy entrance side bone, and therefore use narrow, two-blade heads. Others are concerned about bad hits behind the diaphragm, and select large, multi-blade heads. There are enough decades of solid evidence to support both positions, so neither is necessarily right or wrong.

The same decisions apply to arrow weight. Some folks are worried about bad hits due to range estimation problems, and choose light, flat-shooting arrows. Others are concerned about penetration, and select heavy, slow arrows. Just like broadheads, both schools of thought are sound, so neither is universally right or wrong.

Offline Greg Skinner

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Re: Help with penetration
« Reply #108 on: January 26, 2010, 01:19:00 PM »
I've followed this thread from the beginning and it has been a good, informative thread.  I enjoy this type of thread and I think we can all benefit from it.  Jason, I think your last post summed it up extremely well.  Sometimes we perhaps need to adjust our setup based on the situation at hand - flexibility it's called.  That's why threads like this that explore the good and bad of all the various combinations is useful.
And in the end of our exploring we shall return to the place where we started and know that place for the first time.

Offline Str8Arrow

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Re: Help with penetration
« Reply #109 on: January 26, 2010, 01:27:00 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by George D. Stout:
From str8arrow,

"I've killed many from the ground where the arrow went through the scapula and killed the animal quickly."


So you aren't opposed to taking bad angle shots?
The archer is in charge of the angle...not the deer.  Approaching angle....I pass, and that is the only angle that includes the fore side scapula.  
If the deer is downhill from me and completely broadside, you can hit the scapula and the lungs. If you're wondering if I only take quartering away shots - no, I take others too. It depends on the distance, wind and other factors whether I take a given shot. If I think I have a very good chance of making it, I take it. If your ethics tell you not to unless you have a 100% chance of making it, you better not shoot. Nobody has those odds.

 
Quote
So are you guys okay with just going ahead now and shooting into heavy bone, bucause you think it is okay?
I doubt anyone does it on purpose, but stuff happens and arrows don't always end up where intended. My ethics tell me to  do my best to pick a set-up that will have a higher chance to work when that "stuff" happens and heavier bone is hit.

 
Quote
I haven't had any bad hits for thirty plus years because I choose not to.
I suppose anyone could wait for that quartering away shot at 5 yards - passing up all others, just to make sure, but my ethics say that's not necessary. Animals make inadvertent movements when you don't expect them to. They aren't stationary objects without movement. Eyesight can fail to see that twig that deflects the arrow. A release can be less than smooth under the pressure. Murphy's law says lots of things can happen to spoil the best of plans. Those are the odds I play.

Offline George D. Stout

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Re: Help with penetration
« Reply #110 on: January 26, 2010, 02:42:00 PM »
With all your chewin', you are basically telling us our arrows are inadequate...that's ridiculous and purely condescending, and not based on fact.
Your argument is against what we choose, more than it is for what you choose.  Our experience means nothing to you, but you will wrap yourself around a study that is incomplete as it did not include most models needed for a true scientific study.

I have an idea those efoc arrows work great, as do the single bevel broadheads....but you seem more concerned with proving ours as not worthy.
You are way off base on that.  And by the way, most broadside shots don't entail hitting the scapula....if you do, you missed the spot big time.

Offline Terry Green

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Re: Help with penetration
« Reply #111 on: January 26, 2010, 02:42:00 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Str8Arrow:
I doubt anyone does it on purpose, but stuff happens and arrows don't always end up where intended. My ethics tell me to  do my best to pick a set-up that will have a higher chance to work when that "stuff" happens and heavier bone is hit.

 
Or, ...said another way....

I doubt anyone does it on purpose, but stuff happens and arrows don't always end up where intended. My ethics tell me to  do my best to pick a set-up that will have a higher chance to work when that "stuff" happens and the hit is TOO FAR BACK....

I prepare for the most HIGHLY PROBABLE worst case scenario.  Based on the animals I hunt and their tendency to step forward on the shot than backward.

This thread sums up what I have found for myself through my own experiences years ago, and I've found it to be true.  Not only me....

  Here it is again.....
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Offline Str8Arrow

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Re: Help with penetration
« Reply #112 on: January 26, 2010, 04:01:00 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by George D. Stout:
With all your chewin', you are basically telling us our arrows are inadequate...that's ridiculous and purely condescending, and not based on fact.
Your argument is against what we choose, more than it is for what you choose.  Our experience means nothing to you, but you will wrap yourself around a study that is incomplete as it did not include most models needed for a true scientific study.
What are you drinking? I'm relaying my experience and my reasoning. If you interpret that as a slam on you, then you got a problem. No where did I say anything about your methods. My post to you was mostly about shot choices and how I don't have to have a 100% chance of success in order to take a shot. Relax and read a little more carefully.


 
Quote
And by the way, most broadside shots don't entail hitting the scapula....
And I suppose you can find somewhere in my words where I said that it did?

Offline Str8Arrow

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Re: Help with penetration
« Reply #113 on: January 26, 2010, 04:05:00 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Terry Green:


This thread sums up what I have found for myself through my own experiences years ago, and I've found it to be true.  Not only me....

  Here it is again.....  
I happen to also believe that most misses are back, but like I said before, that's a dead deer in my freezer. It's not the kind of miss I'm worried about. I think it's fine that we each have our individual concerns and that we address them the way we see best.

Offline Dr. Ed Ashby

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Re: Help with penetration
« Reply #114 on: January 26, 2010, 04:11:00 PM »
For folks like George, who make only perfect hits, the arrow setup they choose to use will never matter much. I just do not know how anyone manages to never make a bad hit.

The last truly bad hit I made was about 3 years ago. It was on a pig, standing dead still, broadside, a mere 18 yards away. It was facing to my right (the pig's right side facing me), with its head turned to its left (away from me). I aimed on the shoulder, right straight above the ball joint. As I took the shot, and as near as I could discern perfectly coincidental with my release, another pig, off to my left and out of sight, snorted. The pig I was shooting at wheeled immediately, and the arrow hit squarely, broadside in the LEFT gut.

It was a pass through shot with a single-blade broadhead. Within 10 yards I found blood but, as is my custom with any pure gut hit, I backed out and waited 12 hours before following the spoor. The pig was recovered approximately 160 yards from where it was hit. Being not pressed immediately after the hit the pig had bedded down and the wound from the super-sharp broadhead left a wound that had continued to bleed freely. Altogether, it was an easy recovery on a very poor hit.

However, the point is I just don't see how anyone who shoots very much game can never, ever have a bad hit. Stuff DOES happen, regardless of how hard one tries. No one could ask for a more perfect shot setup than I had on that pig. Not alerted, looking away, standing still and perfectly broadside in the bald open.

Now, I've had FAR more of what most would call a 'bad hit' occur on the bones of the shoulder than I have had 'back of the diaphragm'. That's very likely because I aim on the shoulder, not back of the shoulder. That greatly reduces the number of 'too far back' hits. Most animals that move to the sound of a shot duck and then either move forward or turn to their right or left.

Let's analyze that. If an animal ducks down the shot goes high. Spine? If aiming on the shoulder it could mean scapular flat, or scapular flat plus spine. It they turn either left or right or, even worse, both move forward and turn to either side, AND you are aiming 'back of the shoulder' you have just set up for a perfect one lung hit - the hit that is most likely to NOT be a fatal hit. If you are aiming ON the shoulder of an animal the animal has to make a far greater degree of left or right turn (or move forward, with a left or right turn) before one lung passes through and out of the ‘kill zone’ of your aiming point. If you are aiming ON the shoulder and the animal jumps straight forward it again has to move a far greater distance before the lungs pass through and out of the ‘kill zone’ of you aiming point.

In the last quarter century I've not had an arrow stopped by any shoulder bone, or combination of shoulder bones, on a single hunted animal. That takes in a fair number of big game animals, with many being "sizable" critters. Some believe that there is no such thing as a ‘bone breaking arrow’. In the 2007-2008 testing, EVERY penetration enhanced, structurally secure EFOC/Ultra-EFOC arrow having a mass weight above the Heavy Bone Threshold passed through the heavy bones of the Asian buffalo. That includes EVERY rib, scapula and spine hit. This represents 169 CONSECUTIVE HEAVY BONE HITS with such an arrow setup. Only half of those shots (52%) were with the heavier 82# Straight end longbow, and nearly 20% of the shots were with the 40# recurve! The balance of those 169 shots were with 54#, 64# and 70# longbows, with less than 3% of the shots being with a 60# compound. No arrow setup is a bone breaker? What do you think is the “likely outcome” with any of these arrow/bow combinations when hitting the heavy bones of a deer sized animal? Failing to smash through even the heaviest bones in a deer’s body is about as close to a ‘nil probability’ as one can get. When using such an arrow setup there is no reason to fear the bones of the shoulder, should you hit one, and therefore no reason not to aim directly on the shoulder, reducing the likelihood of either a single lung hit or a hit too far back. (There will be a more complete reporting on the Study's bone-breaking shots, and this entire topic, in one of the later 2008 Updates.)

I'll never have any problems with the setup any bowhunter is using if he rarely (or never) hits and fails to recover game. If he is hitting and failing to recover game on anything more than a 'rarely' basis, then his arrow setup can be improved.

After what is now over a half century of big game bowhunting I am totally convinced that a solid body hit ANYWHERE with a TRULY SHARP broadhead results in a dead and recoverably animal IF the arrow penetrates sufficiently AND the hunter has the skills and knowledge to proper follow-up after the hit. The one acceptation is the one-ling hit. If the BH is TRULY sharp there's a higher probability of a one lung hit proving fatal, but the follow-up of a one-lung hit animal (even with that TRULY SHARP broadhead) should be just like that for a pure gut hit. Press a one-lung hit animal and jump it up and the odds of recovery go way, way down.

Just one point about one lung hits. I've been through several tactical firearms courses, including FLETC (the Federal Law Enforcement Training Center, in Glenco, Georgia). Do you know why law enforcement officers are taught to engage the 'bad guys' from a 'square on' shooting position, instead of the ‘facing to the side’ position, as was taught by the military for years? Think about it. Facing 'square-on' you give the bad guy(s) a lot bigger target to hit than you do when facing sideways, so why do it? It's because, if you have your side facing the bad guy and he scores a thorax hit you have almost guaranteed a double-ling hit. Facing square-on, though presenting a larger target, you have greatly reduced the odds of a double lung hit. The survival rate from a one lung hit is very high. Survival rate from a double-lung hit it is very low, even with the best and most immediate of medical care!

Ed

Offline Jason R. Wesbrock

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Re: Help with penetration
« Reply #115 on: January 26, 2010, 04:37:00 PM »
Richie,

 
Quote
Originally posted by Richie Nell:
Jason,
 
 You can also follow Dr. Ed's guidelines straight down the line and not see the word "guarantee"... or where he implies a guarantee.

Please read the following, excerpted from above:

 
Quote
Originally posted by Dr. Ed Ashby:

No arrow setup is a bone breaker? What do you think is the “likely outcome” with any of these arrow/bow combinations when hitting the heavy bones of a deer sized animal? Failing to smash through even the heaviest bones in a deer’s body is about as close to a ‘nil probability’ as one can get. When using such an arrow setup there is no reason to fear the bones of the shoulder, should you hit one, and therefore no reason not to aim directly on the shoulder, reducing the likelihood of either a single lung hit or a hit too far back.

Ed

Offline Horne Shooter

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Re: Help with penetration
« Reply #116 on: January 26, 2010, 04:53:00 PM »
Thanks Ed.  Excellent.  Your logic and experience make the most sense to me on this topic.  I used it to kill the buff in the picture to the left.  Proof is in the pudding.
Live every day like its your last, one day you'll be right.

Offline Kenneth

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Re: Help with penetration
« Reply #117 on: January 26, 2010, 04:57:00 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Terry Green:
 
Quote
Originally posted by Str8Arrow:
I doubt anyone does it on purpose, but stuff happens and arrows don't always end up where intended. My ethics tell me to  do my best to pick a set-up that will have a higher chance to work when that "stuff" happens and heavier bone is hit.

 
Or, ...said another way....

I doubt anyone does it on purpose, but stuff happens and arrows don't always end up where intended. My ethics tell me to  do my best to pick a set-up that will have a higher chance to work when that "stuff" happens and the hit is TOO FAR BACK....

I prepare for the most HIGHLY PROBABLE worst case scenario.  Based on the animals I hunt and their tendency to step forward on the shot than backward.

This thread sums up what I have found for myself through my own experiences years ago, and I've found it to be true.  Not only me....

  Here it is again.....  [/b]
Terry, thanks for the link; I've never seen that post before.  

I use EFOC and a heavy arrow for my set ups but as stated in the other thread "I'm more worried about hitting too far back" and I prefer 4 blade heads but I'm also trying some 3 blade heads.  IMO, the more blood on the ground the better.   :thumbsup:
Chasing my kids and my degree for now but come next fall the critters better look out.  ;)

Offline Dr. Ed Ashby

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Re: Help with penetration
« Reply #118 on: January 26, 2010, 04:59:00 PM »
Jason, saying something is "close to a nil probability" is not precisely the same as a "guarantee". To be more precise, there is a very, very, very high probability that the likely outcome when using such and arrow setup against the heavy bones of a deer sized animal will be complete penetration of the bone.

On the other hand Richie is precisely correct in the statement he made. Nowhere in the Study Updates (to date) will you see the word "guarantee", nor will you find one implied (relative to the topic at hand). I did guarantee one thing in the published Updates: any setup that is fully adequate for buffalo will be fully adequate on any smaller animal.

So, you ask, why am I saying that heavy bone penetration is the very, very, very likely outcome with these setups now? Simple, I've never had these kind of results until I began testing these specific types of arrow setups. Ergo, there was no data to support that type of conclusion. The data is now there.

So, Jason, are you suggesting that arrows such as described won't reliable break out the heavy bones of a deer size animal? If so, on what data do you base that conclusion?

Ed

Offline charles m

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Re: Help with penetration
« Reply #119 on: January 26, 2010, 05:08:00 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Dr. Ed Ashby:
So, Jason, are you suggesting that arrows such as described won't reliable break out the heavy bones of a deer size animal? If so, on what data do you base that conclusion?

Ed
For a start, the originator of this thread.

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