Help with penetration

[James Wrenn]

So Ladams my answer is bad shots are bad shots but a heavier arrow with high FOC will make bad shots dead and recovered animals.

Yeah there are those that think that.There are also those that think man never landed on the moon.    You shoot something in a place that is non leathal and it does not matter what you are shooting.Bad shots are best overcome by spending more time shooting and learning when to shoot than by weighing arrows.

Sure you will still mess up..we all do at times but you look to the mirrow for what you need to fix,not your quiver or whats in your hand.  

[todd smith]

Read this and draw your own conlcusions:

 http://www.tradgang.com/ashby/2008update2.pdf

todd

[Rob DiStefano]

i totally agree with curt,

there's always gonna be bad shots.  it happens.  

however, increasing the chances of changing a wound to a kill is what the ashby reports are all about.  increasing arrow mass weight and lots of efoc front end weight.  dunno about the single bevel thingy, yet.  

not saying the above arrow setup changes will help in every bad shot situation, but i can't see where it would hurt as long as you know both your arrow's trajectory and your effective accuracy range under hunting conditions.

definitely cruise through the doc's 2008 p2 report, as well as some of his others.

[Shaun]

Re read the Ashby reports. My understanding of his work is that the things to do to make for better penetration IN ORDER are:

1. Energy from bow = max draw weight that you can use with good form, ie. full draw, clean release, etc.

2. Perfect arrow flight. This is the most often overlooked piece of the puzzle. Aluminum arrows are nice and straight, but one of the worst materials for clean non oscillating flight. Wood is better and carbon better yet but aluminum can be OK if tuned. Tuning for correct flight with your bow and form is critical. This is much more important than all the following factors. So much so that without it the other ideas are mute!

3. Arrow mass. Heavier is better - given the first two above are addressed.

4. Then we get into the other variables like FOC, single bevel, etc.

The entire treaties on penetration factors started with the axiom that where we hit game animals is unpredictable. This came from personal experience and extensive interviews with and questionnaires presented to other bow hunters. It is not just about buffalo rib cages. As you discovered (me too) an arrow will not penetrate a deer scapula if arrow performance is marginal.

A 530 grn 2018 flying clean at 160 fps with a reasonably sharp broad head should stick in the dirt on the far side of a relaxed deer hit in the ribs. The same set up flying just slightly imperfectly and hitting the solid part of a deer scapula on a string jumping deer will not penetrate 2".

My limited experience with those TX whitetails is that they can be wound tight and will be ducking and diving when your arrow gets there. Shooting one near a feeder requires shooting at the spot you think they might be in by the time your arrow gets there - not shooting at where they are at the time of release. If they are less than 30 yards from you, they are going to jump the string big time.

Get with some other trad archers, double check your form for draw length etc, consider carbon arrows and get perfect arrow flight tuned in. Good luck with those jumpy deer and good hunting!

[Richie Nell]

James,
Yes, all the mechanics in shooting are the most important.  The operator of the bow has to do their part and like you say we all make bad shots and all shoot at a moving target that was still.  But Ladams would have been better off with a heavier arrow and higher FOC.  How do you disagree with that.

What do you think about the actual field results from Dr. Ashby's research?  Do you not believe it?
Are you excluded from "those that think that"?

I am just trying to grasp the fact that so many of you ingore the best research that YOU have ever seen.

Fill me in on something better.  I will listen.

[Terry Green]

I dont' know how many times I've said it....but I'm gonna say it again.

NO HEAD WILL GURANTEE A SHOULDER BLADE PASS THROUGH....NO MATTER WHAT YOU READ.

[Ryan Rothhaar]

I've shot through whitetail shoulder blades with Snuffers - and have not gotten through with Snuffers.  I know guys that have shot through heavy bone with Grizzly heads - and have NOT gotten through heavy bone with Grizzly heads.  Expecting a "magic bullet" setup is nonsense...too many variables.  I believe that there are MANY more unrecovered deer THAT DIE due to gutshots with inadequately sized broadheads (ie insufficient blood trail) than to lack of penetration on heavy bone hits.  Rest easily, your shoulder shot buck has every likelyhood of surviving (a bit wiser than before).  I think too many guys miss the point - the key is to balance ADEQUATE penetration on reasonable shot placement with ADEQUATE wound channel for sufficient internal damage and blood trail to find your animal....regardless of FOC, GPP, or whatever XYZ you prefer.

R

[Terry Green]

Originally posted by Ryan Rothhaar:
I've shot through whitetail shoulder blades with Snuffers - and have not gotten through with Snuffers.  I know guys that have shot through heavy bone with Grizzly heads - and have NOT gotten through heavy bone with Grizzly heads.  Expecting a "magic bullet" setup is nonsense...too many variables.  I believe that there are MANY more unrecovered deer THAT DIE due to gutshots with inadequately sized broadheads (ie insufficient blood trail) than to lack of penetration on heavy bone hits.  Rest easily, your shoulder shot buck has every likelyhood of surviving (a bit wiser than before).  I think too many guys miss the point - the key is to balance ADEQUATE penetration on reasonable shot placement with ADEQUATE wound channel for sufficient internal damage and blood trail to find your animal....regardless of FOC, GPP, or whatever XYZ you prefer.

R

Yeah....that's a good read.  Good enough to read again.

Everytime a person makes a bad shot he/she should learn from it, not automaticaly blame and change their equipment.  If you do that every time you will never have a confident set up.  You wil always be searching and never find it. Cause like Ryan said, there is NO MAGIC BULLET. And this thread proved it.... changed heads and got the same results.  

There was a guy on another thread lately that said he had to change to a certian head weight because he had a crappy release.  Why doesn't he feel compeled to fix his release?  Cause he's been told if he buys something it will fix it for him, but it's really just a bandaid for the real problem.

[Charlie Lamb]

Only a sharp knife and a post mortem would prove what went wrong. Obviously you hit something very solid.

To ask for answers from people who weren't even there is kinda silly... you were there and you don't know!

Your set up is a very efficient one. Shoot it more and work on the things you CAN control.

[Charlie Lamb]

I might add that while Dr. Ashby has compiled a very complete study and offers some excellent advice, he has not accounted for EVERY variable and therefore his finding should be considered theory not fact... albeit very well informed theory.

[James Wrenn]

Oh I have read all the reports.I agree that is certain cases some of the things might help.After shooting deer so long with all sorts of arrows and bows I also believe that shot placement is the only real key to recovering animals.If I ever hunt animals where I might need penitration other than what I get I would be all over the stuff in the reports.I however have never had any problem with penitration on the animals I hunt.

As far as the foc thing it is nothing new.Anyone that has been shooting carbon arrows since they first come out and used heads heavier than 100gns has always had more foc than other type arrow materials.When I put a 200gn head on my carbons for my 40lb bows I have a 30% foc.Since I like big broadheads the foc has always been there.Reading about it in a report some years later did not come as a surprise.    Now

Now would any of these things helped the shot in this topic.I have no idea just as no one else here that posted does.We do not know the shot angle,height ect or anything to say the arrow going in farther would have helped one bit.One thing we can all see and I think agree on is that hitting behind the shoulder instead of other places would have made this thread a completly differnt topic.  :D  The one constant that I have found with bowhunting is making shots count.That is something we can contol.We can't count on heavier arrows or a different foc to bail us out.If you want clean kills it is up to you not what you are shooting.While everthing in the reports might be spot on I just don't like the way it is often promoted as a fix all or bandaid.

First rule of bowhunting..learn to shoot and where to shoot and when to shoot to kill what you are hunting.When things go wrong look to yourself for the fix,not your equipment.  

[Jim Curlee]

Shot placement is the key. None of this heavy arrow, foc, etc. crap is going to make up for a bad hit.
Don't take it personally, if you've been hunting for awhile you are going to make bad hits. If anybody tells you that they have never had a bad hit on an animal, they are either lying, or haven't shot that many critters.
I do believe that most of these animals survive.
I also believe that once you penetrate the body cavity itself, that animal is going to die. Just might not be today.
550 grains is enough for any animal, especially a whitetail. Washington state minimums are 450 grains for "big game".
Years ago a friend of mine shot an antelope in the shoulder with a 95lb compound. He got his antelope, a week after he got home the outfitter mailed him the skull.
Shooting them in the shoulder is ussually an unrecovered deer.
Jim

[George D. Stout]

Richie, Ashby's report is not a cure-all for bad shot placement.  Chances are very good that the shot made would have been no different with a heavier arrow, even if it was flying well...."because"....we don't know the whole story.

Guys do weird things in the presence of game. Heck some don't even get much past half draw at times.  I've seen some sights over my bowhunting career, and if you keep your eyes open, you will as well.  It's not always about the biggest, heaviest, etc.  And yes....I read the Ashby report and have great respect for Dr. Ashby.  I also have five decades of first hand experience that I can fall back on.

I would be willing to bet that most guys going afield nowadays, do not have perfect arrow flight, and that is the "main cause" of penetration issues.  Not fronts-of-center...not mass....not momentum, unless it was momentum lost due to poor flight, bad release, et al.

I listened to the same argument in the 1960's from guys who swore in front of God that a 243 would never kill deer....you must have a 30:06 and 180 grain bullets.  

So before you go telling us we are all a bunch of idiots, or heathens for not complying with the good Dr.'s results, perhaps you could open your mind and think that some of us have actually had great success over our hunting life, and will continue to do so with our pathetically, inadequate equipment.  Just sayin'...maybe there is more than one answer.

[Jim Curlee]

I agree with George, I have killed alot of critters, with "inadequate equipment", Imagine that. Even with wood arrows, wow.
Jim

[Guru]

Originally posted by Charlie Lamb:
Only a sharp knife and a post mortem would prove what went wrong. Obviously you hit something very solid.

To ask for answers from people who weren't even there is kinda silly... you were there and you don't know!

Your set up is a very efficient one. Shoot it more and work on the things you CAN control.

Very good post Charlie    

[Ladams]

Thanks guys I understand the Question has no real answer but I believe I got what I was looking for and then some< I understand that nothing can make up for a bad shot and I undertand that only I can fix that.and charlie hit real close to home with his comment about working on the things that I can control.
Thanks LA

[getstonedprimitivebowhunt]

.....massive ...heavy arrow at short range !!!! = DEAD DEER !!!!!

[Jason Jelinek]

After reading Dr. Ashby's study, I read that the heavy bone threshold is around 650 grains.  That's heavy bone regardless if it's whitetail, elk or bison.

When I've shot whitetails with a 530 grain arrow I've gotten passthroughs when it didn't hit any heavy bone, when heavy bone was hit I didn't get a passthrough.  I haven't hit heavy bone on an animal yet with the 700 grains arrows I'm currently shooting so I don't have any real world data to back up Ashby's study.

[Guru]

Originally posted by getstonedprimitivebowhunt:
.....massive ...heavy arrow at short range !!!! = DEAD DEER !!!!!

Gotta disagree...It doesn't take a "massive,heavy arrow to equal "dead deer"....

The arrow he's using is perfect for Texas whitetails!

[jhg]

Originally posted by Rob DiStefano:
...
there's always gonna be bad shots.  it happens.  

however, increasing the chances of changing a wound to a kill is what the ashby reports are all about.  increasing arrow mass weight and lots of efoc front end weight.  dunno about the single bevel thingy, yet.  

not saying the above arrow setup changes will help in every bad shot situation, but i can't see where it would hurt as long as you know both your arrow's trajectory and your effective accuracy range under hunting conditions.

 

Exactly. The original post asked about help with penetration. Repeating over and over it was a bad shot helps not at all. And  arguing about whether a heavier arrow is or is not a solution for a bad shot is getting away from that.

I think the suggestions to fling a heavier arrow are right on. It can only help if you understand the fps penalty, which IMO is minor considering a deer will jump a 180fps arrow about as easily as a 165fps one.

Its a matter of self-confidence now though, isn't it? Get that back and you will be fine.

Joshua, who can kil a deer with his 38# bow and a 300grn arrow if it "hits them in the right spot." ;0)