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Author Topic: Help with penetration  (Read 1881 times)

Offline George D. Stout

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Re: Help with penetration
« Reply #40 on: January 25, 2010, 09:52:00 AM »
And to add to Guru's post....The arrow he's using is perfect for Roosevelt Elk, Shiras Moose and White Pine stumps.

Offline Terry Green

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Re: Help with penetration
« Reply #41 on: January 25, 2010, 10:04:00 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Terry Green:
I dont' know how many times I've said it....but I'm gonna say it again.

NO HEAD WILL GURANTEE A SHOULDER BLADE PASS THROUGH....NO MATTER WHAT YOU READ.
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Offline Ladams

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Re: Help with penetration
« Reply #42 on: January 25, 2010, 10:58:00 AM »
I dont post here very often but I get a ton of info here.
the quality of info is very top notch.Terry Greens leafy hat is very cool mabe someday I will find one like that.his advice is always on target as with most of you.  you guys have answerd guestions comfirmed my thoughts and did not beat me up too much in doing so.
I believe you guys might even be able to solve the worlds problems if given the chance.
Thanks Again
LA
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Soverign balistick 62"60#@28
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Seven lakes longbow 64" 59#@28
Moab 62"58#@28"
Big Jim thunderchild 58" 50@28"

Offline Zach Mikita

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Re: Help with penetration
« Reply #43 on: January 25, 2010, 11:00:00 AM »
Jack you're exactly right

I've experimented with short drawing and have flat out missed targets at 15 yards when short draw is performed

Focus focus focus =]

Offline Jason Jelinek

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Re: Help with penetration
« Reply #44 on: January 25, 2010, 11:09:00 AM »
Terry is absolutely correct.

The only guarantee in life is death...

Even a well placed shot on an animal perfectly broadside that doesn't move with a razor sharp broadhead and a weight of 10 gpp does not guarantee a recovery.

Offline Rob DiStefano

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Re: Help with penetration
« Reply #45 on: January 25, 2010, 11:20:00 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Terry Green:
I dont' know how many times I've said it....but I'm gonna say it again.

NO HEAD WILL GURANTEE A SHOULDER BLADE PASS THROUGH....NO MATTER WHAT YOU READ.
+1    :thumbsup:

life's a crap shoot of sorts!  :D
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Offline Ladams

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Re: Help with penetration
« Reply #46 on: January 25, 2010, 11:25:00 AM »
Rob are you still shooting a mohwak??
Soverign balistick 62"62#@28
Soverign balistick 62"60#@28
Krewson Snakey Osage 64" 52#@28
Seven lakes longbow 64" 59#@28
Moab 62"58#@28"
Big Jim thunderchild 58" 50@28"

Offline Richie Nell

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Re: Help with penetration
« Reply #47 on: January 25, 2010, 11:27:00 AM »
George, etc.,

First of all assuming that any arrow ladams shoots is well tuned with a sharp broadhead...that is a given.  It may actually NOT have been the case but we don't know that but for the question below...it was.

Explain to me why ladams WOULD NOT have been better off and increased his chances of killing that deer had he used a heavier arrow with high FOC.  Why would he NOT have improved his chances?

It seems you guys also ignore that most "bad shots" you may make are NOT your fault.  The animals move and the arrow hits a spot you didn't want it to.  What about that?  So how do you address that situation?

Do you just think "Oh well I have been hunting for 58 years...maybe the next deer won't move and I will hit my spot."  

Or do you think, "Well, I know that is going to happen.  I know the deer is going to move on  shots.  I am going to do some things to beef up my ammo, tune it well, put the same scary sharp broadhead on it and greatly increase my chances of killing a deer even with a "bad" shot.

Based on what you guys have been saying..I am inferring that you do not do the latter.  Why not?  To me that makes more sense.  

If the latter is not the way to address the unfortunate shot placements then tell me why?

And if you will, base your answer on as extensive background information as the Ashby reports have supported the latter.

I want to learn from the other side as well.
Richie Nell

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Offline Richie Nell

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Re: Help with penetration
« Reply #48 on: January 25, 2010, 11:35:00 AM »
Also,
Noone has uttered the word "guarantee", not even the Ashby reports.  

It seems to be all about increasing your chances and research seems to prove it does.  Not in theory.
Richie Nell

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Offline Rob DiStefano

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Re: Help with penetration
« Reply #49 on: January 25, 2010, 11:36:00 AM »
richie, i don't see where anyone's nay saying stuff like high gpp/foc.  

think they're saying that criteria is peripheral to a good flying arrow, that's well placed, with a sharp c-o-c point.

and they're absolutely right, imho.
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Offline Rob DiStefano

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Re: Help with penetration
« Reply #50 on: January 25, 2010, 11:36:00 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Ladams:
Rob are you still shooting a mohwak??
you betcha!  same ol' 55# t/d.
IAM ~ The only government I trust is my .45-70 ... and my 1911.

Offline Fishnhunt

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Re: Help with penetration
« Reply #51 on: January 25, 2010, 12:40:00 PM »
ONE GUY SAID:  

“First rule of bowhunting..learn to shoot and where to shoot and when to shoot to kill what you are hunting.When things go wrong look to yourself for the fix,not your equipment.”
I AGREE WITH THAT


ANOTHER GUY SAID:

“It seems you guys also ignore that most "bad shots" you may make are NOT your fault”  
I DO NOT AGREE WITH THIS!

I have only been bowhunting for a short while (2006) but since when does a deer taking a step become the deer's fault?????
In my limited experience a ‘bad shot’ is almost ALWAYS the archers fault.  

Animal moves before arrow gets to its mark and the animal takes it in the shoulder or guts = archers fault for shooting too far away (or shooting when animal was jumpy, i.e. the deer's body language told you not to shoot).
 
If you want to ‘get away’ from shooting at wired texas whitetails, don’t shoot them at a feeder!  Animals are jumpy at feeders b/c they’ve learned that being near the feeder is a precarious situation for them.  You’d be jumpy too if someone flung arrows at you whist you ate your cheerios in the AM.  Since I’ve stopped hunting feeders I have not had near as many string jumpers.  

If your bow limb hits a tree or some other ground clearance issues and the arrow is sent off course = archers fault.  This has happened to me. It was my fault for not taking into consideration the angle of my bow while kneeling.  

Arrow deflects from grass or vine and goes onto a wayward path = archers fault. Shoulda waited for a clearer shot or ID’d the path better.
   
Arrow hits bone and does not get thru…..your fault for hitting bone, or your fault for not getting thru bone.  Either way, the deer taking a step and taking it in a ‘bad spot’ was not something that should fall on anyone other than the archer.
Now please do not read this and think that I am some holier-than-thou—ultra-ethic’d-guy.  I have taken some shots that most of you guys would never fathom…....even in your wildest dreams.

Some of those shots ended badly and at the time I blamed the animal, or the vine, or my long limbed bows and their ground clearance issues, or my arrows.  I used to blame those external factors for my mistakes.  Now I just blame myself. Once I started blaming myelf and not the equipment, I was much less likely to take those low percentage shots.


And yep, even on a CLOSE range shot things can go awry.  In 2008 I shot a small buck w/ my howatt @ 13 feet.  He was extremely jumpy.  This was in front of a feeder and he was quartering away hard.  I have it on video but the vid will remain valulted forever b/c it was a low point for me and something that I am not proud of.  He dropped so low in that short distance that he took the stinger to the back of the cranium and was down.  Yes..they get jumpy around feeders. Should NOT have taken that shot. Not the deer's fault.  I could tell from his body language that he was wired and that anything could happen….greed won out and I took the shot.  Again, not something I am proud of and I have been changing things since.

Offline SteveB

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Re: Help with penetration
« Reply #52 on: January 25, 2010, 12:41:00 PM »
Quote
It seems you guys also ignore that most "bad shots" you may make are NOT your fault.  
I feel most if not all the "bad shots" I may have
personally experianced where my fault. Either shot selection, timing or execution. Those are the things I work on. And since doing so, the "bad shots" are more of a memory for the most part. And any that I may have experianced would not have had anymore chance of recovery with additional penetration - they where bad shots in low vital areas.

Offline George D. Stout

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Re: Help with penetration
« Reply #53 on: January 25, 2010, 01:03:00 PM »
Richie, I do respect your exuberance for the sport of bowhunting, and I know you have a desire to do the best you possibly can to make good shots and use good equipment.  

You stated: "Or do you think, "Well, I know that is going to happen. I know the deer is going to move on shots. I am going to do some things to beef up my ammo, tune it well, put the same scary sharp broadhead on it and greatly increase my chances of killing a deer even with a "bad" shot."

Personally, I have already thought that out.  I know, and have seen, what my equipment will do..in good and bad conditions, on good and bad shots.  The last bad shot I made was in the 1970's.  Here is why:  I learned not to shoot under certain circumstances; deer looking at me; deer tense from extraneous activity; deer not broadside and almost no possibility of hitting entrance shoulder.

Now...anything can happen, of course, but most things occur because the shooter makes an error in judgement...not because a deer jumps the string.  The archer has complete control over the situation and is the one choosing when to loose an arrow.  So, the onus is on the guy behind the bow to make, or not make a shot...good or bad.

As for my equipment....average arrow is between 470 and 550 grains, depending on what bow I'm shooting.  I have seen these arrows cut through a deer's spine (when I hunted from trees), pass through a lung...into the heart, and be imbedded in the brisket with the point starting to exit the body completely.   That was with a 470 grain arrow, Bear Razorhead, 53 pound bow....shot distance seven steps.

I have also had a 540 grain aluminum arrow penetrate both hams....a very bad shot on my part, and luckily caught the femoral artery.
I have never hit a scapula in all my years...except on one occasion, and that was on the exit.

Now I don't pile up deer numbers since in Pa. we can only take one buck per year, but I have taken over twenty-couple in forty-couple years.
I never lost a deer due to poor penetration, but I have lost a couple to to bad shot placement.

So yes...we are deeply concerned with how our equipment performs in the field, even in less than perfect conditions: however, I have the most affect on what those conditions will be, and act accordingly. I also have the experience and examples to know that what I am doing is best for me and the game I hunt.

I would never tell you or anyone else that your equipment isn't good equipment.  The bottom line is how it performs and I am more than comfortable with my equipment, and I know it's not detrimental to the sport, because it is very adequate, and quite efficient.  I'm sure what you use is every bit as good. 8^).

Offline Ragnarok Forge

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Re: Help with penetration
« Reply #54 on: January 25, 2010, 01:27:00 PM »
I agree with something from every post so far.  I gotta say that the 4 answers I have seen to the original question are.

1.  Find perfectly tuned arrows to the bow.
2.  Work on your form and being able to
    find that perfectly tuned arrow.  
3.  Know when to and when not to take a shot.
4.  Increasing your arrow weight and foc will
    increase penetration.  Science and
    field testing in the field have proven
    conclusively that this works on buffalo, it
    will sure work on deer.

Deer string jump compounds shooting 300 fps.  Trying to claim that the difference between 170 and 155 fps will make for a missed shot, is a bit silly.  The difference in travel time at 20 yards is miniscule.  Not irrelevant mind you, just miniscule.

The real question is do you want to increase your chances of penetrating the shoulder blade of the deer you are hunting.  If the answer is yes, Asbhy offers a very easy method to increase that potential dramatically.  

George, Terry, etc.. are correct.  You really need to focus on your form, release, etc... first, then work until you are confident where you look is where you hit, and stay inside those ranges for hunting shots.  Then if you want, increase your existing set ups penetration, optimize your arrow.
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Online Ryan Rothhaar

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Re: Help with penetration
« Reply #55 on: January 25, 2010, 01:33:00 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Richie Nell:

Or do you think, "Well, I know that is going to happen.  I know the deer is going to move on  shots.  I am going to do some things to beef up my ammo, tune it well, put the same scary sharp broadhead on it and greatly increase my chances of killing a deer even with a "bad" shot.

Based on what you guys have been saying..I am inferring that you do not do the latter.  Why not?  To me that makes more sense.  
 
I agree completely.  The point is there are SEVERAL WAYS to improve the equation.  You might, for instance, choose to shoot a 71# bow (as it says in your signature at the bottom of your posts).  The Ashby data certainly does not require such a bow for pass through shots on deer.  Yet you choose to shoot higher poundage (as do I, by the way), likely to increase your horsepower.  I choose large broadheads for the same reason.  I'll gladly take the possible downside of this (ie less heavy bone penetration) for the upside (ie more damage on a marginal "soft tissue" hit).

When I hunted water buffalo I read the reports and developed my setup accordingly (1000+gr arrow @ 165-170 fps out of a 75lb recurve with a high quality modified STOS head).  For whitetails I apply other compromises - as stated above.

I certainly would never say I have as much experience shooting buffalo as the Doc.  However just myself and my family have well over 100 yrs combined experience hunting (and recovering) whitetails shot in real conditions and tracked under real circumstances - likely much more in that specific situation than the Doc will ever have.  Due to this experience I disagree with the Doc's conclusions that recovery of wounded animals is due more to penetration than to wound channel size.  Just has not been my experience - remember, the animals 95% of the folks hunt 99% of the time are not difficult to shoot through.  I don't think Ed ever meant his data to be followed dogmatically, but applied correctly under the right circumstances.

Ryan

Online lpcjon2

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Re: Help with penetration
« Reply #56 on: January 25, 2010, 01:37:00 PM »
Does anyone ever use the term "BUCK FEVER" anymore or is that now called "A LIGHT ARROW SET UP".Not sure But I would have to agree with Terry,Rob,Charlie,George,Curt,and Ryan They have probably shot more arrows into animals in their combined years hunting than Dr.Ashby shot arrows in all of his reported test.The Indians killed buffalo and they didn't read any reports or have scales or calculators and all the technical crap! they had good aim.
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Offline Hedge Apple

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Re: Help with penetration
« Reply #57 on: January 25, 2010, 01:40:00 PM »
I use to be a Indiana Bowhunter Education Instructer years ago and one thing drilled into the students was " when a perfect shot becomes a marginal shot, dont let your equipment be the factor between sucess and failure." That was directed at the expandable craze then but should be applied to every piece of equipment that goes afield with us. I quess when it comes to your arrow set up, you are the judge and jury. Agree, bad shots happen, stacking the variables in your favor, smart, room for improvement, always. I shoot 57# at my draw with a 760 grain arrow. "Overkill"...you betcha. When perfect shot becomes marginal who wishes they had a lighter arrow?? By no means I'm telling you this is what it takes to be sucessful, just my way of controlling one of the many variables involved with bowhunting.

Offline Rob DiStefano

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Re: Help with penetration
« Reply #58 on: January 25, 2010, 01:47:00 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Ryan Rothhaar:
...   I don't think Ed ever meant his data to be followed dogmatically, but applied correctly under the right circumstances.

Ryan
+1    :wavey:
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Offline Rob DiStefano

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Re: Help with penetration
« Reply #59 on: January 25, 2010, 01:54:00 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by lpcjon2:
 Does anyone ever use the term "BUCK FEVER" anymore or is that now called "A LIGHT ARROW SET UP".Not sure

that's the non-gear side of the equation, and boy is it sure prone for problems!

But I would have to agree with Terry,Rob,Charlie,George,Curt,and Ryan They have probably shot more arrows into animals in their combined years hunting than Dr.Ashby shot arrows in all of his reported test.

count me out of that list - it's those others who are the true bowhunters and they know precisely what they're doing.    :thumbsup:  
 
The Indians killed buffalo and they didn't read any reports or have scales or calculators and all the technical crap! they had good aim.

perhaps.  then again, i'll betcha they at least knew the difference between a dull stone head and one that was razor sharp, and which one to carry hunting.  it's all just knowledge, do with it as you like.
....
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