Help with penetration

[James on laptop]

Well every bad shot that I have ever made has been my fault.It has never been because my equipment was not plenty for what I was hunting.If a deer moves it is because I tried a shot I should not have made.It is because I did not quiten my bow well enough or read the animal as well as I should when decideing if the shot was there.I am the ONLY one to blame.I pick,tune and shoot my gear.No one or no deer does that.I hit one deer in the shoulder that I did not shoot through.Just so happens it was with the heaviest bow and arrow I have hunted with.That is one time in over 30years where a cape buffaloe setup might have been better.There have been a lot more times that A larger broadhead would have made a difference however.Bigger holes and more blood can often mean the difference in recovery or not.There are far more deer shot too far back that ever get hit in the shoulder.

If you want insurance and you are shooting those heavy bows and arrows a big snuffer or treeshark will give you a lot better policy than skinny single bevels every will hunting deer or most of the things we hunt.    jmho

[lpcjon2]

perhaps. then again, i'll betcha they at least knew the difference between a dull stone head and one that was razor sharp, and which one to carry hunting. it's all just knowledge, do with it as you like.
  Rob you are one quick guy...LOL was that a sharp or razor sharp response.  

[Dr. Ed Ashby]

Ipcjon,

Just for the record, I will gladly take a bet on those numbers of total shots. It's pretty likely that I can let them count their small game too! Over just the last quarter century the number of test shots now numbers in the the multiple thousands ... not including the 627 bow-killed big game animals and the uncounted total of smaller game taken during that same period! Now, I don't have an actual record of the kills for the quarter centure before I started keeping records, but that's a few hundred more bow-kills to add in too.

Oh, and none of the Indians killed buffalo; they killed bison - a totally different, thin skinned, open-ribbed animal!

Ed

[Dr. Ed Ashby]

Larry,

Here's the link to the 2007, Part 8 Update that list the penetration factors and the degree of importance/effect/influence each has.

 http://www.tradgang.com/ashby/2007update8.pdf

There will be a more definiteve 'heavy bone penetration' update coming with the 2008 testing Updates, but it's still several months away from publication (it's around Part 7 or 8).

Hope the info helps,
Ed

[Ladams]

Come on guys dont start beating me up aabout the shot being bad because if you go back to page one you will see that I was the first one to say the shot was bad. I never blamed the equipment i meerly asked if you guys thought the set up was adaquite.and if you thought if the arrow should have penetrated the shoulder, I understand that tons of stuff comes into play when you loose an arrow. I quess I was looking to ease the pain a little.I respect almost all of the replys here and some of them I have never thought of now shed some new light.
LA

[James on laptop]

627 Big game animals in the last 25 years.You must be shooting close to 2 every day of the year.    

How many of those are southern whitetail deer?That seems to be what most of these penitration threads are talking about.Those thin skinned bison make shooting whitails a bit like busting water ballons.Why can't anyone else realise that.      :D

[Ladams]

Thanks Dr.
I will take a look

[Dr. Ed Ashby]

James, I did have some good runs!

The first four years I lived in Africa I averaged 300 days/year of hunting ... until I took up doing a bit of guiding ... and I've been retired, and more or less a full time 'bush bum' for all of the last 16 years. No money, but lots of time to hunt ... and I've tended to frequent places without seasons or bag limits.

Life can be SOOOOO GOOD!
Ed

[lpcjon2]

Dr.Ashby please do not feel that I am insulting you in any way.Its simply that what happens when hunting doesn't always have to be a mechanical  error with equipment.
And how many animals do you think you harvested before you started testing the FOC theory? Didn't you shoot bows with just a good flying arrow at a normal weight and make clean kills?

[Richie Nell]

George,
I appreciate your response to my questions.  If you would answer the first question;

 

First of all assuming that any arrow ladams shoots is well tuned with a sharp broadhead...that is a given. It may actually NOT have been the case but we don't know that but for the question below...it was.

Explain to me why ladams WOULD NOT have been better off and increased his chances of killing that deer had he used a heavier arrow with high FOC. Why would he NOT have improved his chances?

Based on what I have heard so far I just have to chalk this up as... I am not experienced enough with bowhunting. I personally do not need to think for a second that I have it figured out enough to object to... or have a better answer than.... the best actual, factual, hands on  research regarding arrow lethality thay anyone has ever done.

[Jerry Wald]

OK MY $.02 cents worth....

Sometimes you have to NOT SHOOT....

I watched Fred Ichler shoot a groper from a ground blind on a video I bought the other night. He starts by saying this is a buck of a lifetime...OH NO I SAID to myself.

The buck turns at the watering hole and is at a pretty EXTREME angle to the shooter.

I think -nope I am sure I wouldn't have taken the shot.

He took it and it hit the buck in the extreme rear and out the otherside...killed it - it went about 100 yards.

It was a marginal shot at best, but I think he put himself in a bad state of mind (we all do it sometime). He got himself worked up and took the shot anyway.

I am not saying he is unethical don't get me wrong, and he seems to be a good shot under pressure, but I think sometimes we have to NOT SHOOT.

PS - his shot on the grizz standing up..made my heart race. I have been told a million times not to take that shot...but he was confident he could do it. If that arrow would have caught one of those scrub brushes he was standing in...well I will say that it could have got real ugly real quick.

jer Bear

[Dr. Ed Ashby]

Timothy, most of the big game kills on my list during the last quarter century were taked with an EFOC arrow setup. Now, at the time I didn't KNOW that it was an EFOC setup, or even what EFOC did. I didn't understand what high MA single-bevel broadheads did either, but I was using them. Why? Because it was the arrow setup that had, hands down, worked the very best; proving to be the most lethal of all setups tested in the original Natal Study.

That arrow setup was an original Forgewood with the 190 grain Grizzly. I still have a few. They measure just over 19% FOC. From that setup I've gradually moved to higher and higher FOC setups.

During this last quarter century I've hit and failed to recover only 4 big game animals. One was a mule deer that was picked up by other hunters before I reached it. A kill, but one "I" failed to recover. Then there was a Minnesota black bear that jumped into a deep water swamp. I waded out as deep as I could go but was unable to follow any further. (It was a remote area; no boat, and no way to get one there.) Then I lost 2 pigs in Austraila in 8 seconds. Both ran out onto the mud flats. One I could see down, but not the other. I tried to reach them, but my wrecked knees made it impossible for me to wade the mud.

I lost more game during the first quarter century I hunted than I like to think about; animals I would not lose today. (Knowledge is the most important thing a bowhunter carries to the woods ... and I've found some during all these years.) My worst single-year loss was the first year I hunted with a compound, using light arrows and replacable blade, multiblade broadheads. I hit and failed to recover four deer that year alone.

" Didn't you shoot bows with just a good flying arrow at a normal weight and make clean kills?" Yes, I did. During those early years I cleanly killed a fair amount of game with such an arrow setup ... but I hit and failed to recover a fair share too; far, far more than I have since concentrating on an arrow setup that maximized the arrow's terminal performance.

Ed

[lpcjon2]

Thanks doc and I have read some of your stuff and I do on some arrows use a chisel tip as you demonstrated.I try not to get as technical in the Trad hunting as I did when I did the wheels.

[onewhohasfun]

My number 1 priority is an exit hole. I think the good Doc's set up gives me the best chance for obtaining one. Great to see you on here Doc.

[Fishnhunt]

Ladams, I am sorry. I was not trying to beat you up. My post was more of a rant towards those that think a bad shot comes from external factors. IMO, a bad shot usually results from the archer, I am a good example of that. I wasn’t trying to bash you, I just have some issues to deal with myself. I will try to answer your original question.

I am an accountant and in this profession we use the phrase 'facts and circumstances'......it means no bright line test can be applied. The IRS will look at the 'facts and circumstances' of a situation to determine proper tax treatment. I think the same idea of ‘facts and circumstanes’ can be used with hunting… especially w/ bone hits.

When you get a shoulder hit, the ‘facts and circumstances’ determine what is going to happen. IMO every bone hit is different, and the penetration will depend on what bone you hit and how you hit it (angle, etc) and what you hit it with. I am not saying that anyone needs to hunt deer w/ a heavy setup but I would like to think a heavy setup would help on the rare event of a shoulder hit. I have never hit nearside shoulder so I cant say for certain. Is the heavier setup worth the tradeoff? That’s for the archer to decide. Everything in life and in hunting is a tradeoff…… its a question of what you wanna get and what you’re willing to give up/accept.

Ladams….I think your setup is more than adequate for WT deer. But specifically for a shoulder hit? I have no idea, it would depend on which part of the shoulder blade or humerus you hit and how the scenario played out.

I think there is a lot to be gleamed from those Ashby reports and if I have not yet said so before……I am very grateful for the work Dr. Ashby has done. I am currently moving up in bow weight for kicks and giggles but here are my results from 2009. My arrow setup was in part influenced by the Doctor’s work.

Doe at 19 yards ever so slightly quartering away. At feeder. 513 grain arrow entered nearside ribs, completely thru spine, parazlying deer, thru offside ribs and blade lodged into offside scapula and then broke at alum threads. Recovery = zero yards. No more hunting at feeders for me. The shot was a very well executed and accurate shot….. low to the pocket but the doe ducked at the shot and she took it in the spine. She did not look wired by her body language but IMO when deer are at feeders they are always wired. This was a 125 Magnus screw in + 100 brass.

Spike at 15-16 yards. Treestand no feeder. Broadside 513 grains. My release was terrible and it sent the arrow careening. I should have passed this shot. Spine shot. Blade lodged into spine and arrow/BH interface stayed intact. I still have the blade as lodged in the vertebrae. This was a 125 Magnus screw in + 100 brass.

Spike at 17.5 yards in a field from a tripod no feeder. Slightly quartering towards 580 grains. Arrow entered in front of nearside leg, thru chest cavity and exited thru farside ribs near armpit of farside leg. Arrow not stuck into dirt, rather justly lying on top of Johnson grass. Didn’t realize it at the time but that heavier arrow w/ the 200 grain WW was WAY WAY WAY too weak for my setup. Single lung hit, wont take that shot again. He was up for too long after the shot. Ran about 200 yards and bedded, then up, then down dead. First WW that I ever shot at a live animal. That was a really dumb shot (not to mention crazy for NOT having bareshafted the 2nd set of arrows) but for some reason the shot felt right at the time and the shot process happened so quick I did not think about much other than focus on the spot and smooth release. It was an accurate shot. Albeit risky. Like I said wont take it again. If I had shot that deer in the same spot with an equally out of tune, less FOC, fatter arrow... would I have gotten the same penetration?  I’m not gonna try to find out.

All of the above deer were shot w/ Axis ST 500 skinnies and either Magnus 125s + 100 brass inserts for 225 grains up front OR 200 grain WW on steel adapter + 100 brass inserts for 300 grains up front. All shots were with my 1965 Howatt 37#@27

I still have a lot of work to do. Working on restraint while hunting is where I'm trying to start. Tuning, form, etc.  Still have lot to learn.

[charles m]

Originally posted by onewhohasfun:
My number 1 priority is an exit hole. I think the good Doc's set up gives me the best chance for obtaining one.  

That's what the original posted did, and it didn't work.  I think that's the whole point of some peoples comments here.

[Ragnarok Forge]

I am always confused how this kind of discussion becomes a them against us issue.  If you like light arrows and shoot them well, by all means shoot them.  Same with heavy high foc arrows. your experiences determine what you choose to shoot.    

The real point of this discussion was how could he increase penetration on marginal hits.  Both sides have posted a bunch of great answers.  

Just because your highly experienced and love light arrows does not mean that those who want to use heavy high foc arrows are against you or your way.  It is just not their way of doing things.

This is America folks, to each their own. I can't see one reason for any side to be upset or bashing the others methods or techniques.  Personally I like heavy high foc arrows. They shoot well to my hunting shot range boundary of 25 yards and hit like a hammer.  Just my preference.  

George, and a bunch of other light arrow shooters can shoot circles around me at longer ranges, and I bet at least most of the time probably at closer ranges to.  They simply have more shooting time in than I have been breathing.  Their way works perfect for them.

I say we quite arguing about arrow weights and start discussing why we all need to be better trackers and how to do that.

Oh, the average shot distance for american indians hunting Bison was well under 20 yards, and often at 6 to 8 feet off horseback.  Most bow weights were between 25 and 40 lbs back then.  Pretty easy to get good penetration on a Bison at those ranges even with an ultralight arrow.  They preferred getting really close, it was part of their culture to show they were brave, just like counting coup on an enemy.  Plus if they lost a few wounded bison, with 3,000,000 more I doubt they went to a whole lot of effort to track them down when there were 10 to 20 laying around dead to be worked on.

[Mechslasher]

excellent article dr. ashby.  i mentioned that arrows can bounce off ribs and that broadheads, from powerful bows, can be stopped by ribs on the *********** and was all but laughed off the topic.  i've skinned between 700-1000 and have found around a dozen broadheads either stuck in ribs or just under them.  i'm really wishing i had saved them.

[onewhohasfun]

Well said Clay. I just started a new post on this very subject. Debates on T/G

[Mr.Magoo]

I haven't read all the replies, but the answer to the question is "no" your set-up won't penetrate a whitetail shoulder (at least not every time) as you have seen.

Now what can you do to increase penetration (if that's what you want)?  

1.  Change your arrow to a small(er) diameter front-loaded carbon.
2.  Get a bow with more horsepower.
3.  Use a heavier arrow.
4.  Some combo of the the above 3.

I don't think a broadhead change will help much if at all.  Of course this all assumes your arrow is flying well and your broadhead is sharp.

None of this addresses shot placement since that wasn't your question.

This doe was shot with a fast recurve (55@29), a magnusII and about a 570gr arrow.  Through the near shoulder and stopped by the off side shoulder.  Animals can be tough.