Broadhead sharpness and bloodtrails

[woodsman196]

Originally posted by lpcjon2:
Have you ever tracked a deer(after a 20-30 min.wait) and  found the spot he laid down in and after that no blood.all it has to do is have the right pressure and 5 min and the hole could be closed.

The honest answer is no. Every deer that I have tracked that laid down did not get back up. Now I have heard many stories of that very thing happening I just have not tracked enough animals to experience it yet. I am not some super hunter or tracker I just have not been on more than a dozen or so tracks. I think any wound can close up with the right pressure and some time.

[onewhohasfun]

I think the sharper edge has a better chance of getting thru the hide on the far, exit side. That is most important to me. This year I got a paper wheel sharpening system and I now know what sharp really is. I will never again settle for less. I think it was Charlie Lamb did a post on super sharpness and blood trails. Pretty impressive.

[Jake]

A truly sharp head will out penetrate a sharp head.  The original question also stated "all things being equal"  Are we over analyzing this?

[Str8Arrow]

In many articles I've read the scientific explanation on why smooth cuts clot slower than ragged ones (Ashby has also written on this). Most of us can attest to how long a cut from shaving can take to clot. There seems to be no debate on this in the articles I've read on the subject.

I think the advantages to extremely sharp blades is very distinct. As to anecdotal evidence from individual kills - anything can happen on any given shot. There are a million variables and who's to say which contributed more on a particular one.

[LCH]

The sharpness of the broadhead has everything to do with a good blood trail. I had the experiance of tracking a double lung top of the heart shot doe. She was shot with a dull broadhead by mistake (another story). She barely bled for the first 40 to 50 yards then where the deer fell there was blood everywhere. The deer was dead within 60 yards but the blood trail was sparse at best. LCH

[Terry Green]

Yep...the sharper the better....to a point.

That point is making sure you don't have a bevel so thin that it dulls/rolls on a rib going in, or grazing a bone.  You want the bevel durable enough to come out sharp enough to shoot again, that means it went all the way through cutting everything.

[Brian Krebs]

OK - we test on rubber bands; our arm hair; our thumbnail -
 lpcjon2  says a sharp wound will stop bleeding faster; and I have seen scalpel cuts in surgeries that hardly bled at all.

 Fact is - we rarely shoot animals with no hair. So whatever we shoot goes through hair before it hits skin; through skin before it gets to the blood filled arteries and veins that we need to cut.

 'After hair; a really sharp head will be more likely to still be sharp'.

 Really?

Maybe not. If you sharpen a head on a high degree angle; it may not make it through the hair and skin of the animal and retain sharpness.

On the other hand; a low degree angle might.

Or maybe not- I don't think we have studied it all that well.

 I sharpen with a file; a mill bastard file; and I have hit just a leg vein more than once; and keeping the deer walking; it could not clot; and it eventually led to the deers death.

 It very well could be what our wound expert says- and that fits well into my own forensic training- a ragged cut will not close up and stop bleeding like a sharp one will. And that vessels will shrink up at the point of the cut and stop bleeding- perhaps that is why surgical cuts do not continually bleed (  lpcjon2 - your input here please).

 But what stays sharp through hair and skin- well that is the question.

 I insist on sharpness - and to never shoot an arrow at an animal (or a target either) and shoot it at animal-  unless I sharpen it again- .

 If I can shave with with it- I know its sharp enough- my arms are always bare: before the hunting season opens  

[Dr. Ed Ashby]

Here you go.

 http://www.alaskabowhunting.com/PR/ashby_getting_an_edge_on_success.pdf

Ed

[amicus]

In my opinon, sharper does equal more blood. But does not automatically equal to more blood on the ground.

Gilbert

[Sharpster]

Bloodtrails... excellent or poor are the result of three basic factors coming together in a complete recipe: Shot placement, pass through penetration and sharpness. The sharpest blade in the world won't make up for a bad hit, two holes will always bleed better than one, and even a perfectly placed shot with a dull broadhead won't produce much blood. We need all three ingredients in combination.

As for the physioligical/medical reason's that the honed edge has been proven to inhibit cloting, see Dr. Ed's link above or ask any other surgeon. I've heard too many medical experts say the exact same thing to question their expertise or conclusions.

Ron

[Tsalagi]

Interestingly, shochetim (the ritual slaughterers who slaughter according to kosher laws)have been having almost this very same argument over knife sharpness for a hundred years or so. The debate continues and each group has it's own adherants, but no agreement has yet been reached.

[Jake]

I have never heard anyone say my" broadhead was too sharp" or "my knife was too sharp"  Just some food for thought...

[Bonebuster]

woah!!!

[Bonebuster]

I got some new Magnus-1 two edge heads for Christmas from my lovely wife.

I mounted them, and shot them, and then put a RAZORS edge on them.

New Years Eve found me in a treestand. I put an arrow on the string, and "test" drew my bow as I always do. Did you know a Magnus-1 is a tad wider than a Delta?

I TOUCHED my finger with the new RAZOR edge, and proceeded to leak for the the rest of the evening. This was one wound, that the keen, mirror smooth surface that did not/would not clot.

I`ll opt for mirror smooth every time.

[woodsman196]

Dr. Ashby

Thanks for the link I will read it with great interest.


 

Originally posted by Sharpster:
.....even a perfectly placed shot with a dull broadhead won't produce much blood.
Ron

Ron

This statement is the meat and potatoes of my original question. Even though I asked about "blood on the ground" what I really wanted to know is does the degree of sharpness effect blood loss. Even if it is internal. My interest in this topic is not shot placement, shot angle, broadhead type, pass throughs or whatever else, I acknowledge that all of those factors lead to the ideal ending.  I am just interested in the cutting edge and when I know the edge it at it's optimum sharpness.

Thanks for all the replys.

Ivan

[Richie Nell]

Dr. Ed,
I was waiting on that.

Thanks

[Earthdog]

I like a filed edge that is then cleaned up just a little with a standard butchers steel.
It will cut hair, but it's not quite "cut your eye balls" looking at it sharp.(THANKS BORNAGAIN)
The reason I do this is because I also belive a bad cut that bleds a lot, is a ragged cut.
All that being said,the size of the holes are more important to me in so far as "blood trails" go.

[KSdan]

no question. . . once you shoot scary sharp (I learned when I used some Sliver Flames) you realize the difference.  I used blades that could shave hair for years, but shaving hair and scary-popping- hair-sharp are two different weapons.

[Kris]

Already posted by Dr. Ashby himself, but an absolute must read!  Here it is again.
  http://www.alaskabowhunting.com/PR/ashby_getting_an_edge_on_success.pdf  
After 25 years of successful bowhunting, I have finally started honing my broadheads to scalpel sharp, after the results from this season, I will never do anything but this again.  Give it try.

Thank you Dr. Ashby for all your outstanding work!  Please keep the info coming, it has improved my archery and bowhunting comprehension and proficiency profoundly.  What an excellent resource of information!

Sincerely  

Kris Herman
Wisconsin

[LKH]

Coagulation is also related to the body's response to trauma and the razor sharp cut produces less response and takes longer to stop bleeding.  Even so, the amount of blood is generally determined by where you hit it and if you get an exit wound, preferably low.

I always liked not finding too much blood for a bit and then watching it get better.  Hated to see a lot and then less as I went on.