Shoulder?

[Old York]

Dumb question.

I keep seeing reference to a deer's shoulder.

What is the "shoulder" on a deer to you?

Where is it?

Scapula?

Humerous?

Radius and Ulna?

Where the scapula joins the humerous?

Where the humerous joins the radius/ulna?

[reddogge]

The hip bone connected to the thigh bone.  Thigh bone connected to the leg bone. The leg bone connected to the foot bone......

That's about as technical I can get with bones but basically it is the scapula, the wide plate like bone with a ridge running down it you don't want to hit.

  http://www.deerhunting.ws/deeranatomy.htm

Or just look at my avatar.

[ChuckC]

This has been brought up several times in the past and needs to be brought up routinely.

It has been my experience, based on results from EVERY hunter safety class I have taught, that most folks really don't know.  

They ALL called the shoulder that point where the fore leg meets the body from side view (our elbow).  They ALL have been taught to aim behind it,  as in several inches behind it.  

That puts them really close to missing lungs even if they hit where they are aiming.  

None of the classes.. ever.. positioned the heart, lungs and liver correctly (yes we have a model for this portion with velcro-on organs)

There is more, but it will just create yet another argument so I will shut up here.
ChuckC

[beaver#1]

the one that hooks the front leg to the body

[JAG]

I'm glad someone brought this subject up.
I've taught Hunter Ed. and IBEP for better than 25 yrs.
There are very few "hunters", that can show where the internal organs are positioned, correctly.  Nor can they idenitify the sketal structure.
Its not that they aren't good hunters, they've been told to shoot behind the "point of the shoulder", by their mentors and hunting friends.
Most after taking an IBEP course have a better understanding of the internal organs and skeletal structure.
Its suprising just how many people have told me, after taking the IBEP course, that they learned  the correct placement for the internal workings of a deer.
Not putting anyone down, its just they didn't have access to correct information.

[Old York]

To the top?

To the bottom?  

   

Anyone else?

I'm asking opinions on what you consider to be the "shoulder".

Shot placement is a whole 'nuther Bag 'O Cats caught in a weed whacker

cement mixer blender microwave dingus thingy.

[Terry Green]

The shoulder is what the shoulder blade is encased in. See the shoulder blade above??? That's the shoulder.  That's a fact and not an opinion.  

Why would we have an 'opinion' on where the shoulder is???  Do we have an 'opinion' on where the nose of a deer is?  An 'opinion' on where the tail is?  An 'opinion' on where the hoofs are?  No, of course not.... they are where they are...fact, and most hunters know exactly where they are.

BEHIND the shoulder is the best place to aim, which is above the elbow.  This is the CENTER of the vitals and gives you the the greatest margin of error and the quickest cleanest kills.

         

[Terry Green]

This pic shows you the vitals ...and the yellow is circle is moved slighly forward for better viewing the rear of the vitals but the black circle and red line are still in the same place....dead center of the vitals.

   

And yes,....there will be no can of worms opened    

[reddogge]

Keep in mind that scapula bone pivots back and forth as the deer is walking so your best shot is when his near front leg is extended forward. Less chance for error hitting the shoulder.

I had an unfortunate experience with shoulder bones.  I bounced a Razorhead out of one on the biggest deer I've ever shot at (12 points) with a 50# recurve in 1972.

[bornagainbowhunter]

Hey Terry, what are those pointy things on the top of that deers head?  

[Old York]

I think of our shoulder as being where our humerous joins our scapula and forms that 90º shape on either side of our neck; that does not readily translate to a deer's shape for a half-wit like me. "I hit him in the shoulder" is akin to saying, "I hit him in the front."

[ChuckC]

Terry   exactly... well done.  

Most folks (at least around here) are taught to aim behind "the shoulder" and then they point to a spot several inches behind the elbow.  That is what they called "the shoulder".  

I teach hunters ed, specifically this section and I get to ask ALL of the students we teach about this.  This is not my opinion, it is what they tell me and show me.

By aiming above the leg, as shown in Terry's diagram, you have the biggest bestest open area for lungs and heart.  You center punch them. And you have only ribs to contend with.

If you aim, as I just described (behind the elbow) you have a really good chance of shooting behind the lungs even if you hit exactly where you are aiming. .  no error (except in judgement).

I really believe this is in large part why folks going to Africa reportedly have such problems with shooting too far back, as read in many many threads about that topic.

We need to learn about FOC and arrow flight and sharp broadheads and all sorts of stuff.  And we need to learn about critter anatomy.

As I stated above   NONE of my classes got it perfect and many had not even a realistic clue where the heart / lungs / liver went.  

Take a look at the placement of those shoulder blades. .  the biggest portion of them are above and forward of the chest cavity.  I had previously posted a picture that I took of the WI DNR's deer skeleton.  I will try to find it again and repost.  It shows the same positioning of the shoulder blades.

ChuckC

[John3]

Great post Terry.  I agree a whole bunch of hunters aim "too far back".  This is another reason Bowhunter Education is such a great thing.

Bowhunter Ed should be mandatory in every state for every age....

[Bjorn]

Same shot will work wonders on a pig. Yet lotsa folks say no-they're different?

[Guru]

Originally posted by Bjorn:
Same shot will work wonders on a pig.  

Very true Bjorn....

 

 

[Terry Green]

Yes Bjorn....but hog vitals are a bit more tricky as they are angled up a bit as they go back...the same double lung shot on a deer could result in a gut shot on a hog.

Low and tight is good...low and back aint(yellow crcle)...the same shot low and back would double lung if it was high and back(pink circle).....so again I aim for the middle right over the elbow for the greatest margin of error on a broadside shot (orange circle).

             

I quit shooting hogs 'low and tight' after I lost one due to it being 3 inches back.  I now aim as I suggested above(orange circle).

Same low and back on the deer would kill it(orange circle)....

         

[charles m]

I hope that lots of people are reading this thread. With the recent comments made on the locked thread about the avocation of taking shots directed at the shoulder blade.  This shows their obvious lack of understanding of where to aim at a whitetail deer by those advocating such shots. There is nothing good to come from taking a shoulder shot at at a deer.  Thanks for pointing this out.  It was needed.

[onewhohasfun]

Terry, is it possible to show the location of the shield?

[Terry Green]

Shield Hardness and Location - Click Here

[Cool Arrow]

Most 3-d targets place the 12 ring incorrectly. This teaches us to shoot too close to the shoulder blade. My opinion.
      Larry