The trend of lighter and lighter ....

[Str8Shooter]

Actually the KE of a 400 gr. arrow moving at 170 is app. 25.7#. It's 170*170*400/450240. I think the original calculation had a couple of number transposed. Either way it's still enough.

Chris

[Mr.Magoo]

Pinelander gives himself a little too much credit as I started this thread a few days before our exchange on the "Wall".  Guess he still needs validation.

In any case, my original comment was on folks constantly seeking the BARE minimums they could use for hunting ... not to bash people who use 40#ish bows.  

I saw a lot of threads on the various boards with assumed novices asking "what's the min. draw weight I can use" and "will my 300gr. arrow be enough" etc ....  Time and time again, many of the regular posters chime in with comments like "300gr. will blow through ..." and "here's a pic of a deer killed with a 28# bow ..."  Just bad advice in my opinion.

I'm not a bowhunting history junkie, so I hesitate to comment when I read posts like George Stout's where he opines on the good old days.  But I don't think I've ever read where Fred Bear or Howard Hill or Ben Pearson or Tom Jennings etc... used light equipment for hunting.  Activities like field archery were much more popular years ago and  my guess is most of the light equipment sold wasn't used big game hunting or perhaps for the occasional bow hunt.

The American Indian is always resurrected as well.  But most accounts I've read, suggested Bison looked like a pin cushion after being killed.  Not to mention the fact that they were chased on horseback by a group of hunters until they bled out.

In any case, I appreciate all the replies.  It's all food for thought.

[James Wrenn]

Why would it be bad advice? I mean if people are doing it with consistant results why would you not tell the truth about it when asked.I know what works because I have been doing it that does not mean someone else is wrong because they use something different that works for them.Personally I believe all the States that set mins on bow weight are going about it all wrong.They should be setting MAXIMUMS instead.I know from 20 years of shooting 75 to 90lb bows that there are far more animals lost from people being overbowed that any lost from lack of penitration on deer size animals because of shooting lighter weight bows.The problem comes from what people perceive as you call a bare minimum.It takes far less that most anyone would dream to cleanly kill a small whitatail deer.I do not consider bows in the 40lb class as a light bow at all.

[Paul WA]

I'm a big man and shoot a 50#@28" longbow with 600gr footed shafts tipped with Fish head 2 blades for elk and Wensels for deer..works for my bad shoulder...PR

[Curveman]

I wouldn't want one group to become derisive of the other group ("heavy" Vs "light" shooters) and that appears to be happening a bit. I partly agree with Magoo in that I DO think too many people are ignoring physical fitness and should address that rather than look for the "weakest" way to do things but then there are others who are in awesome shape who for very good reasons, including joint injuries, do shoot a lighter bow. I certainly don't see heavy bow shooters as more "manly" and their counterparts as less so. But I don't see "heavy" bow shooters as necessarily being overbowed or otherwise trying to prove anything either. Even though I lift weights and am pretty strong, when I started tradbow, I had a little trouble with a 50#. (Different muscles). When it came time to buy a custom bow, my first bow had come to seem very light so I thought I would go mid 50's. It was only when someone in the bow shop mentioned that New Hampshire had a legal requirement of 60# for moose that I ordered one at that weight. It now feels every bit as "light" as my 50# bow did when I got comfortable with that weight. I just ordered a longbow in the early 60's just because I didn't want to make too many adjustments when I went back and forth between my recurve and my longbow. Oh, I had Ray of the old Lost Nation archery shop observe my shooting with a 60# to make sure I wasn't overbowed before I bought it. I think that is always good advise.

[Molson]

Originally posted by Mr.Magoo:

 
I saw a lot of threads on the various boards with assumed novices asking "what's the min. draw weight I can use" and "will my 300gr. arrow be enough" etc ....  Time and time again, many of the regular posters chime in with comments like "300gr. will blow through ..." and "here's a pic of a deer killed with a 28# bow ..."  Just bad advice in my opinion.

I agree.  If someone doesn't know the answer to these questions, they need to learn more about bowhunting and shooting before heading off into the woods.  To just say, "Yeah, have at it, I did it." is bad advice in my opinion too.  

My 60# bows shooting 700 gr arrows blow right through game too.  But if a beginner asked if 60#'s was enough to hunt deer he'd probably get blasted with dozens of posts telling him he's overbowed.  So why is it ok to let a guy go just because he's shooting a light weight?

Personally, I'm glad no one ever told me I was overbowed.  Since I didn't know any better, I just learned to shoot with 60#ers. Light does not make Right!  Your equipment choices should be made after "intelligent practice" has given you the experience to decide.

[Pinelander]

Magoo, yes that is correct, although the "other" discussion began 4 days before you asked for "validation" about light bows/arrow weights over here. You and I must be having some confusion as to what validation means. When something has been proven that reflects on something that was previously only assumed, that's usually referred to as validation. Not sure why when I speak of such things, it is looked upon as me requesting some sort of personal validation from others. You don't have to believe it or agree with it, and really not sure what else you are reading into it. It's just my experiences shared with others based on the discussion at hand. Yes, it's all food for thought.

[Alex.B]

Hey Greg,
nice pig man!! nice deer too. Let's get together and shoot sometime, OK?

[George D. Stout]

Molson....I don't consider 60# super heavy, even though I'm currently shooting 48#.   It's always good to shoot what you can handle accurately.  Remember, guys, that this board is a very small segment of the archery/bowhunting population; just because it's stated here doesn't make it so nationwide.

I don't think the "trend" is for lighter and lighter, I think the trend is to find out what really works.  Some of us have lived through the ages before the machines took over.  Some here, aren't even as old as compounds, so they have no experience to fall back upon.   To affix a weight to an issue of "enough" isn't going to work, since there are so many variables.

Just take some time to think about everything that goes into an archery shot at any given weight.   The guys who consistently holler about light bows, don't take into consideration the draw lengths; power strokes; types of rests;  consistency of release, etc.   A good example is my good friend Scotty.  He has a Maulding longbow that is 68# and his draw is about 26 inches.  There would be many folks on here who say wow...that's enough..no argument.  Yet when we shoot together, I can shoot the same weight arrows further with my 48 pound recurve.
What's that all about....the heavy bow guys would tell me my bow is marginally capable for killing deer.  

Performance isn't two numbers penned on the side of a bow.  It's much more than that.  

And by the way,  deer ribs are not very thick and can be easily broken going in and going out the other side with little issue.  Lousy shooting causes bad hits and lost animals.

[Molson]

George,  I don't consider 60# heavy either. To me it's just average.  To someone else it might be heavy or it might be light.

Your post is a perfect example of my point.  Instead of just making a blanket statement, you have provided fact, opinion, and example that one could draw their own conclusion from. Excellent!

There was a thread on here recently and most of the responses to this fellow said he was overbowed.  Overbowed based on what?  One symptom?  This guy was about ready to give up a bow he likes and no one even bothered to offer any advice or suggestions on how to tell if he was overbowed or how he might improve with the bow he had.  Maybe he is overbowed and maybe he isn't.  Shouldn't he have been given the opportunity to find out for himself? Just food for thought.

[Str8Arrow]

After reading through this thread, I get the impression that many think that most draw weights and arrow weights are equal in the ability to penetrate to the point of being lethal.

I often hear the comment that if you hit them in the right place, they're dead. If you can't then start practicing more. I'm wondering how anyone can shoot a significant number of big game animals, let's say 50 to a 100, and have every shot go perfectly. The animal never moves, the arrow never nicks a twig, The angle is always perfect and of course, you never miss your spot. Well, if this describes you, you must lead a charmed life.

Now, if you've had stuff happen, if you seem to never have things go the way they should, would it be no advantage to shoot a heavier arrow and/or a larger draw weight? Can't one arrow possibly get through a shoulder when another can't, or are all truly equal?

[GEREP]

"I often hear the comment that if you hit them in the right place, they're dead. If you can't then start practicing more. I'm wondering how anyone can shoot a significant number of big game animals, let's say 50 to a 100, and have every shot go perfectly. The animal never moves, the arrow never nicks a twig, The angle is always perfect and of course, you never miss your spot. Well, if this describes you, you must lead a charmed life."

Point well taken.  On the other hand, let me play devil's advocate.  After sitting in a treestand in sub freezing weather for hours on end, or having to take a shot in an unorthodox position, or having to take a quick shot after stalking up hill for a half hour just to get into position, with which would one be less likely to have "stuff" happen, a lighter poundage bow that can be handled with ease in any situation or  the "heaviest bow that one can shoot accurately" (at the range)?  Could it just be that more "stuff" happens as a result of one being at the upper end of his draw weight limit?

You are correct, in this game "stuff" does happen.  Having said that, there is room for both schools of thought when it comes to limiting bad things.  One school attempts to reduce them on the impact end and the other school attemps to reduce them on the release end.  

I just can't help thinking that trying to reduce them on the impact end is like saying that if you are going to drive recklessly, it's better to do it in a dumptruck.  It's next to impossible to avoid accidents in a dumptruck but by God when you do end up in one, all that weight around you has to be good for something.

Having said that, I'm sure that there are some people out that can drive a dumptruck as good or better than most people can drive their cars, but it's certainly not the majority.

KPC


 

KPC

[Mr.Magoo]

I don't think equating trying to increase impact (either via a heavy bow, a heavy arrow, or both) to "recklessness" is fair.

I can think of two perfect broadside shots I had in 2 years go wrong.  Both were no more than 20 yard shots at calm deer ... by the time the arrow got there one jumped forward and one was running straight away.

The goal for me (besides hitting what I aim at) is to get 2 holes every time.  Shooting the lightest gear you can, reduces your chances of 2 holes in my opinion.

Adjust your bow weight, your arrow, your broadhead or all three until you get 2 holes and your all set (assuming you can hit your target).

[Str8Arrow]

Originally posted by GEREP:

Point well taken.  On the other hand, let me play devil's advocate.  After sitting in a treestand in sub freezing weather for hours on end, or having to take a shot in an unorthodox position, or having to take a quick shot after stalking up hill for a half hour just to get into position, with which would one be less likely to have "stuff" happen, a lighter poundage bow that can be handled with ease in any situation or  the "heaviest bow that one can shoot accurately" (at the range)?  Could it just be that more "stuff" happens as a result of one being at the upper end of his draw weight limit?

As long as you're not exceeding your limit where you're accurate, I see no reason why the heavier weight should be a problem. In other words, if you can handle 50 lbs without problems with accuracy, why shoot 45? I understand if a person has a physical problem, but just because lighter "feels better", doesn't seem like a very good reason to me. It seems to me that the goal shouldn't be to see how low of a draw weight you can get away with. I'd prefer people shoot the heaviest they can accurately handle.

Also, arrow weight has nothing to do with draw weight. If a heavier arrow gives you the best chance of penetrating a tough spot, then why shoot a light one? If trajectory is the big problem, maybe one should get closer, or practice more. Besides, a light arrow loses it's energy at a higher rate the further it travels, making long shots even more risky.

No matter what anyone thinks, there is a best way. Not all ways are equal. I'm not sure I've figured out what's best, but I would think that would be our goal, rather than "this will suffice   if I hit them in the right spot".

[Aaron Proffitt 2]

QUOTE]I agree.  If someone doesn't know the answer to these questions, they need to learn more about bowhunting and shooting before heading off into the woods.  To just say, "Yeah, have at it, I did it." is bad advice in my opinion too.  

My 60# bows shooting 700 gr arrows blow right through game too.  But if a beginner asked if 60#'s was enough to hunt deer he'd probably get blasted with dozens of posts telling him he's overbowed.  So why is it ok to let a guy go just because he's shooting a light weight?

Personally, I'm glad no one ever told me I was overbowed.  Since I didn't know any better, I just learned to shoot with 60#ers. Light does not make Right!  Your equipment choices should be made after "intelligent practice" has given you the experience to decide. [/QB][/QUOTE]

Well said.These same folks who blast someone as being overbowed are generally the same folks I like to refer to as form facists.Regardless of how well a guy is shooting,if there is any flaw to his form than they are quick to point out they are most likely overbowed.
Crap I say.Shooting a longbow is so easy even a caveman could do it.It does ,however, require
time behind the bow.Shooting at bales,3-D, and stumping all will equate to good shooting.It takes time.
I have people all the time tell me that I am overbowed and yet my arrows are STILL hitting where I look regardless of position or distance(with-in reason).
Bottom line;learn your equipment until it is an extension of yourself and enjoy the hunt.

[ChuckC]

There are those among us who still think that one hole with the arrow remaining inside the chest allows it to move and cut and do more damage as the animal moves away, especially with tougher shafts that may not break.  So much for two holes.  

If a light arrow travels through twenty inches of deer, and a heavy one travels through 25 inches of deer, but most deer are only 14 inches thick, are we arguing about semantics ?

I think that one thing that we will always have is a bunch of people with opinions on what they do and mood or pendulum swings as to what is the current rage.  Up until Ashby's work of late, we had only anecdotal evidence that heavy was good.  

Fact is, in the last twenty years, more has been said about light / fast being good than heavy.  

This isn't the last debate we will have about gear and equipment.  Fact is, we should mark debates such as this and come back to them in ten or fifteen years and see if the thought has changed since then.

Long as we don't get personal and accusatory, talks like this are great for bringing out ideas, all kinds of them.
Thanks
ChuckC

[GEREP]

"No matter what anyone thinks, there is a best way. Not all ways are equal. I'm not sure I've figured out what's best, but I would think that would be our goal, rather than "this will suffice if I hit them in the right spot"."

With all due respect, I don't see anyone advocating using the absolute minimum to get the job done...if they hit em in the right spot.

You said yourself that it should be our goal to figure out what is best.  For many, they have gone the "heavy" route and determined that it is not needed.  You seem to imply that "no matter what anybody thinks" heavier is better.  There are many people, long time bowhunters, that disagree.  Does this make their personal research and choices incorrect?  That is what you seem to be saying.  Who am I to say that a guy like George Stout is wrong?  Heck, I've only been shooting arrows at animals for 30 years...I suspect George has been doing to for a few years longer.

 "I'd prefer people shoot the heaviest they can accurately handle."

Again, with all due respect, I believe the real problem lies within this quote.  Bowhunting is a personal journey.  We all as individuals try to determine what works for best for each of us, many times through trial and error.  Sometimes it involves going against conventional wisdom, sometimes it involves embrasing it.  Why would you have a "preference" as to what weight I choose to shoot?  If my experience tells me that 46# is enough to humanely kill the animals that I persue and it is within the law, why would you have a concern or a goal to get me up to 50 or 55 lbs?  

I can't tell you how many times I have been accused of being a "big tenter."  I have been berated, cussed at and called every name in the book simply becuase I think its a good idea that all bowhunters should try to stick together.  "Traditional bowhunters are individuals" they say.  "Don't try to box me in with everyone else..."  Now, many people choose to hunt with what some people consider to be light weight bows and now we all have to have the same goals?  My goal is to be the best hunter and shooter that I can possibly be.  I practice dilligently and I have determined that for me, accuracy is best with bows between 45 and 50 lbs.  For you, that might be totally different.  The difference in my opinion between me and you is that I have no goals for you.

   

KPC

[Aaron Proffitt 2]

You hit on some good points.Trad archery is a wonderfully subjective past time.Ultimatly,all the goal we need is to be able to hit where we are looking.That,friends, is the barometer for which good shooting is measured.It's that simple.For me,I like the way a 60-65 lb. string zips from my fingers.Yeah,it LOOKS like I am over-bowed and snap-shooting but it is actually a VERY controlled shot taking place.Who cares if a heavier bow hides "flaws" as long as the arrow is hitting the mark.

In fact,why don't we take it a step further;no more form vids.In lieu,why don't we simply allow a person to post vid of his arras striking his target and then narrate which arras hit where he wanted and which ones didn't and go from there.  

[Orion]

You realize folks, we're on an intellectual cul de sac here.

[GEREP]

Orion:

True, but it's a nice day for a drive.

 

KPC