Introducing the Black Swan Wave FD Charts added

[LBR]

Ok, I missed the bare-shafting part.  Back to the first part of my statement--I can only wish I was that good!

If that wasn't the case (bare shaft shooting), can someone explain to me how a shaft looses spine after a certain distance downrange?

Chad

[HATCHCHASER]

Sounds like this thread is turning into a witchhunt.  Let's stick to the sharing of a new bow not picking it apart.  Myself included.  I don't think anyone is being misleaded about the efficiency of Black Swan bows.  They are in the top 5 of the bows I have seen tested in speed and efficiency.

[LBR]

I use bare-shafting when picking arrows and tuning.  30 yds is a long shot bare-shafting.  You better have a good release and the arrow spine right, and no wind.  You also have to have the right target--a bag target is useless for bare shaft testing.

Just keeping it on the bale isn't good enough to detect spine problems, especially if it takes 28 yds for them to show up.  For that to be the case, you have to be a very consistent shooter.

Bare shafting with such stiff arrows makes the feat even more amazing, if that was the case.

I'm just curious--read quite a bit on this thread that I've never seen in person, or even heard of before.  It's quite intriguing.

[JC]

I can't speak for the longer draws, but there has to be something to that with this bow. I shot this particular Wave bow over the weekend and with my 27" draw, I found a Beman MFX400 full length with standard aluminum insert, 300 gr head, 4x4" low profile on a onestringer wrap was pretty close. Since I only had it for the weekend, I didn't want to spend the time perfecting arrow tune but just get some close enough to play with it.

However, I could tell that I wasn't getting into the real "sweet spot" of this bow's power curve at only 27". Over drawing it past my normal anchor to 28 and then maybe 28 1/2" it felt like it was just starting to come into it's own. I'm not a student of force curves, only of the purely subjective feel of how a bow shoots/handles, since for me, the paper numbers mean nothing to me in the field. So from my completely unscientific but first hand testing, I think this bow will shoot completely differently @ 30+ than at 27-28". It certainly did for me.

And Chad, though I'm certainly no IBO caliber shooter, I find it pretty easy to bareshaft tune out to at least 30...sometimes to 40 if conditions are right and I'm shooting as good as I can. The further out I tune, the better my flight is overall. There is a distinct difference between how my arrows fly when tuned to 20yards and arrows tuned to 30+. There are very minor increments in cutting at this point but the differences show up dramatically at the longer tuning distances.

[Greg Owen]

I just know I am on the list and look forward to tuning mine in a few months. I just hope I don't have to get ANOTHER new target. I got a Black Swan Hybrid and the thing shot the arrows through the target so I had to buy a new one.

[Greg Owen]

Were you shooting the back or belly mount?

[JC]

It was the back mount....I believe Dave sent me the one in this picture.

   

[JC]

Originally posted by LBR:
a bag target is useless for bare shaft testing.

Not to hijack the thread, but why would this be? Using OL's method  of relational bareshafting, what difference would the target matter? I use a dirt mound but only because that's what I got....but can't see any reason why target type would make any difference unless you weren't using the relational method (where it's the difference between the location of impact of the bareshaft vs. the fletched shaft).

[LBR]

The arrow doesn't stay still at impact in a bag target.

The way I bare shaft, and if I understand it correctly the way O.L. describes it (Don Stokes showed me some years ago), you pay attention to your nock end position as well as where the arrow hits the target.  Can't do that with a bag, or just any target.  You need a soft foam target that allows the arrow to penetrate and stay in the target at the same angle it impacts, at least to get an accurate reading.

[JC]

That's interesting...when I read about OL's method on his website nock position had nothing to do with it...it was totally how the bareshaft lands in relation to the fletched shaft. That's why I switched to the relational method. My nocks are always nock left and high, no matter what the spine of my arrow. However, using the relational method I get real tuning results.

From OL's site  "Some how, bad information has been passed down from archer to archer for many years on the correct method to bare shaft tune. Some might be familiar with, or heard of a technique of bare shaft testing that requires getting close to your target and analyzing nock left/right/up/down patterns for tuning purposes; That is not a good method and causes great confusion! Bare shafts sticking in a target at an angle or flying through the air sideways can be caused by shooter as well as equipment and you can not tell the difference reliably. The correct way is bare shaft "planing"; Determining adjustments based on bare shaft groups in relation to identical fletched shafts at longer distances. A fletched shaft always goes close to where it's pointed, bare shafts or wide broadheads will not. Nothing in your form can cause this to happen. So by "reading" the relationship between bare shafts or wide broadheads we can fix tuning issues while not allowing form issues to confuse us."

So using this method, the type of target is irrelevant.

[Jeremy]

The way OL describes it, you ignore nock orientation in the target and only pay attention to where the different arrows (bareshafts/fletched/broadheads) group.

I'm not a great shooter by any stretch of the imagination, but when using the planing method of tuning (aka bareshafting) I can see the difference between arrows that look perfectly tuned at 20 but show issues at 30.  Especially if I'm comparing bareshafts with fletched and broadhead arrows at longer distances.

[Sixby]

LBR: That statement has really been puzzling me. How does an arrow--aluminum, carbon, wood, aluminum/carbon composite--loose spine downrange a certain distance?

I ditto that question. I don't undestand how a spine can show good out to thirty and then show weak at 30 yards either. That just goes against all my 50 plus years of experience. If it is a valid statement someone ought to explain it so I can understand it and why.

[Jeremy]

Guess we crossed posts JC

The bow looks interesting.  I'd have to shoot it or see some more test results before passing judgement.  Is Arvid sending one of these to Blacky?

[JC]

A spine that shows it's acceptable at 10-20 may be revealed as not at further tuning distances because the tuning difference is magnified at the longer distance. At 20, my tuning may look very close...at 40 I can see it's not as close as it could be. It doesn't lose spine downrange, it's just that the longer range let's you see the tuning differences to a greater degree.

[JC]

Jeremy, some guys may fall in love with this bow for a number of reasons...but for me, I'll stick with the ones on my rack. That's the great thing about traditional bowhunting and archery today...there's something for everyone.

[LBR]

I stand corrected on OL's tuning method.  The way Don explained it has worked well for me. O.L.'s method may be better, but neither is fool-proof, especially at a long distance.  The further the distance, the better/more consistent you have to be to get reliable results.

Back to the point:  how the heck does an arrow loose spine at 28 yds.?  I may be missing something here, but as best I can tell a weak spine is a weak spine, at 5 yds or 50 or 150.

Sure, it will show up more at longer distances (bare shaft), but you also have to be better and more consistent the longer the shot.  If your release and anchor is inconsistent, you have unreliable results--those mistakes show up more at longer distances too.  The poundage you are pulling will vary by at least a few lbs if you draw short on one and long on the next, plus variations in your release adding to that.  That can throw the spine off by itself.

Still haven't heard if there was even a bare shaft shot to begin with.  I'm assuming broadheads weren't shot?  Is 28 yds a magic number when bare-shafting?

[JC]

One more time, the arrow doesn't lose spine over the longer distances....you can just see the differences better the further away you go. At 20 let's say my bareshafts land 1" roughly to the right of my fletched shafts. Now, for some, that may be good enough. But now move to 30 and they might be 4-5". I tune a bit more and get it closer...then move to 40...repeat. Now back at 20 it might still be 1" but it's certainly not 4-5" at 30 anymore...so I have tuned more accurately using the longer distance to magnify the relation between bare and fletched shafts groupings.

Again, we are talking about relational averages here. You won't hit it every time because of the human errors you mentioned, but the averages of how the shafts relate to each other are clear, especially at the longer distance.

Not sure about what Dave or others did or didn't do since I wasn't there, this is just how I do it. As I said, I didn't do a full out bareshaft setup it while I had it because I didn't want to start messing up shafts for a bow I wasn't going to keep. However, the arrow I spec'd bareshafted pretty close to where it should have been...I doubt I would have had to cut it very much at all to make it as good as I could shoot it.

As far as 28 yards being some special number, not to me but that number may have significance to others.

[vermonster13]

Jason I draw a 30" arrow to the shelf on the bow. The 41@29(hybrid) and 53@30/48@30(Wave) are the markings on the limbs to give a reference point. The 250s are four fletched. The back mount bow holds more energy than the belly mount and has a shorter brace. It makes a 3" difference in power stroke. The belly mount is also 5#s less and was much more spine tolerant. It shot everything from 2016s to 300s front loaded.

The 250s on the Wave were four fletched and as we moved back the group would move right a little more at each distance. When I get the bow back from JC I'll get to shoot it more but most likely those limbs will live on the belly-mount riser for me. I like the draw feel for my draw better on that riser.

28 was the limit of space we had to shoot in my backyard that day. When I get to take it elsewhere I'll shoot her farther.

[Greg Owen]

One thing about bareshafting at longer distances. If you shoot 10 arrows and have 3 bad releases, you can't judge much from 7 good shots. If you shoot 100 shots and have 30 bad releases, you now have 70 shots which may or may not show a pattern. If you see a pattern, change the tip weight and shoot a few hundred more shots. If the pattern is gone or lessened, you have improved the arrow flight. The worse your form is, the more shots it will take to see a pattern, but most likely, a pattern will eventualy show up. To me, tuning is something I do everytime I shoot. I always include a bareshaft in my shots. If it takes 1000 shots for the pattern to show, I've had fun shooting and improved my arrow flight too.

[JC]

Well said Greg. I don't always do it but I often throw a bareshaft in my pocket or quiver when I'm shooting just to reconfirm things.