What is Baiting to you?

[ChuckC]

My point. .  what I am trying to say . . is that there is not a very large line between "baiting" and some other forms of the way we chose to hunt.

I am questioning why "baiting" is held to be such a low down dispicable thing, but hunting over a food plot or any of the other options we discussed is perfectly fine.

Get this.   Although I have hunted bear and pigs / javelina over bait,  I do not hunt deer over bait.  I was brought up to believe that it is not done. .  that you don't need to do that.

Is that why I believe it ?  Is that the only reason ?  Because that is the way I was brought up, trained, what I heard as I was growing up ?

Sitting here, coffee in hand and using my brain to just think about things, I really wonder.

Jacob. .  take your analogy.  The north woods.  ACtually, I have a tiny piece of property up in the UP so it is reality at its finest.  So, my neighbor baits (actually, they all do up there).  That is bad.  Changes the deer habits.

If my neighbor clearcut his land, opened it up to new growth, new possibilities.. would that NOT change the deer habits ?  

If my neighbor cut trees, created openings, planted some food sources (exactly what I am laboring to do for the past several years)  would that not change the deer habits ?   Would "all the deer" now come to my lil place ?

If I were blessed with the only ridge in 5 miles with a handful of oak trees, the rest being typical UP pine and mixed forest, come acorn time, would the deer change their habits and come running to my ridge ?  I actually have a honey hole exactly like this in N WI.  

Am I a bad person for sitting on one of those few trees ?  One of the ones actually dropping acorns ?   How about if I am dropping pebbles from my stand to make it sound like acorns are dropping (dinner bell) ?

Is anything REALLY different ?  The deer are coming to feed, to rest, to drink, whatever and we as predators are noting that and taking advantage of that.

We as humans can actually take it one step further and  . .  not just NOTICE it and react, but we can make changes and CAUSE IT  and react.
Good for us.  That is part of having opposable thumbs and a large brain.  Remember, we don't have noses that can smell a deer trail, or long legs to be able to chase them down etc.

I am not saying pouring a pile of corn is not baiting.  It is.. we have all decided what "baiting" means.  It is probably in the dictionary and it is most certainly in all of the DNR regulations.    

I am asking. . .  what REALLY is the difference.
Maybe adding on another question..  why is it that we as humans get so worked up and excited over things that are different to us ?
ChuckC

[jacobsladder]

Chuck...i agree with you that we shouldnt get so worked up over things that are different to us... but habitat improvement (cutting down trees to provide browse and under growth..planting trees etc..ways of improving the habitat to hold deer and other game is outstanding) and is surely different than dumping bait for deer for a month long period...at least the animals get the benefit from the improved habitat for the rest of the year. Yes any habitat change will change deer habits.....you would benefit from your neighbors clear cut...but you wouldnt from his mound of bait.

I personally am totally for the bait ban... and i'm also for hard work an effort to improve wild life habitat to hold game on ones property.....

[xtrema312]

There is no federal of state law in MI against shooting water fowl on the water.  It is funny how some people will sky bust a bird way out of range risking a cripple, but poo poo someone calling and decoying a bird right into the spread on the water and shooting it.  But I will leave that one to the other forum I hang out on.

Turkeys on the roost are easy targets.  There is a very good reason most states don't allow shooting them in trees.

[xtrema312]

Originally posted by jacobsladder:
Chuck...i agree with you that we shouldnt get so worked up over things that are different to us... but habitat improvement (cutting down trees to provide browse and under growth..planting trees etc..ways of improving the habitat to hold deer and other game is outstanding) and is surely diffent than dumping bait for deer for a month long period...at least the animals get the benefit from the improved habitat for the rest of the year. Yes any habitat change will change deer habits.....you would benefit from your neighbors clear cut...but you wouldnt from his mound of bait.

I personally am totally for the bait ban... and i'm also for hard work an effort to improve wild life habitat to hold game on ones property.....

[Brian Krebs]

ChuckC
 I hunted in Michigan for nearly 20 years before the use of bait in Michigan became legal.

 I hated what it did to deer; and deer hunting.

I saw patterns in the travel of deer from one place to another; and I got deer - before corn ( maybe we should call that B.C. ?)   Then it was a madhouse of roadside stands with piles of beets; and corn; and carrots.
 Deer hunting became deer waiting.
People didn't talk about moon phase and rut; they talked about which was better- corn or beets or carrots.

 There became an ugly impact from doing it. Really- it is ugly.

 To me its another example of doing something to get a deer; that you do not have to do; and that changes the woods- and I think that is offensive in itself.
 Oh yeah; when farmer john changed from raising one crop to another- it brought change; and clear cutting caused change too.
 But in an odd way these were things that were beyond my control; like the weather- and I had to live with the results; work around them.
 Everyone mentions oaks- well I remember finding a bounty of acorns one year and deer frequenting it; and then the next year- well I found out the difference between red and white oaks.

 That is the thing; that my learning was important; my interpretation of the land; the plants there; the wind; the changing situations.

 Compare that with sitting over a feeder.

But on the other hand- I do fearlessly fight efforts to stop baiting for bears. While deer evolve around finding food sources; the bear- his whole being is figuring out food sources. The social structure is who dominates the food .. and fighting for the rights to them. Its a complex thing- and yes in an area that has not been baited - big bears can be 'had' this way- but in the average bear baiting situation; your hunting bears that have full knowledge of the dangers of bait; and it is just as hard to get an old bear off a bait as getting a big buck.
 Baiting deer and baiting bears are really two totally different subjects.

 For instance 'bear baiting' in part of the world; is capturing a wild bear; chaining it down; and then beating; stabbing- and torturing it. Its a fun thing where you appease the fears in you by torturing the thing you fear.

 Maybe though the ugly part of deer baiting is just the same- you appease the fear of not getting a deer by making it easy.

 I do not in any way judge a hunting action by whether or not its legal. I do not appreciate the 'if its legal - then its OK' thinking.

 That makes what we do now- right or wrong - based on the vote of people: that have no idea of what is right or wrong .... (take the mountain lion situation in California).

 If baiting for deer is ethical -- then why are we arguing for or against it? We don't do that when it comes to the subject of bowhunting- do we?

[ChuckC]

How would I benefit from my neighbors changes and not from him feeding the deer ? BTW they  feed all year long up there.   and why does my benefiting from the change  matter.  He is still attracting the deer, using food.

If I work hard and bait, is it better than if I don't work hard, and bait ?

What if I am elderly or an invalid and I can't work as hard as I used to, and I bait ?  

What if I am wealthy and hire a crew to make and tend food plots for me ?  

What if I hire a guide to make food plots, tend them, grow and attract the deer, then drive me out to the blind on the edge of the food plot, right near the major trail that the  deer have formed to get to the food plot ?

Hmmm  I didn't think about those options before.  I need another cup of coffee.  Vermonster,  any cookies left ?
ChuckC

[ChuckC]

It is cabin fever time and time for talking and ,  OK maybe deep discussions.  This topic deals with baiting, but the general gist is .. difference.. difference in tolerance, difference in what I see and do as normal.. from what you may see and do as normal.

This discussion is not gonna solve anything, not likely gonna change anything, but maybe it is a good topic for just sitting back and thinking and talking to each other.

The same general discussion can be had for most anything we do..   Camo / no camo;  scent eliminators / no scent eliminators;  shoot / no shoot  yadda yadda.

Talking and expressing what we are thinking is a good thing.  It certainly gives me a bit more experience from sharing your experiences in addition to my own limited experience.

In the end, if we talk and keep in mind that it is not a fight and just a really deep discussion, we all are better for it.

OK  I have my fresh coffee
ChuckC

[Bonebuster]

I still say that an alfalfa field is bait, as is a corn field or any other agricultural product.
The deer live in the surrounding cover and travel to and from. I have seen trails that were well worn to the point of forming a depression in the ground. A group of White Oaks producing a heavy crop of acorns can be a magnificent deer magnet. An apple orchard. A secluded food plot.

When I hunt such a location, I fully realize that I am taking advantage of "bait". I cannot look at it any other way.

I WILL admit, that it is much less UGLY than the other methods, such as corn piles, and huge piles of sugar beets for sale, being loaded by the TON and hauled to the woods for "hunting".
Bags of carrots rotting, and turning to liquid between gas pumps at every station around. Add the blatant disregard for the recent law banning bait in southern Michigan, and it becomes even more ugly. Disgusting in fact.

I fully support the bait ban in the lower penninsula. I should say I support what it was SUPPOSED to do.

[coffee]

This has been an interesting thread.  A person can quickly see that different regions and hunting cultures have different opinions on this.  I don't know why we lump the baiting of diffent animals all into one issue.  I come from Wisconsin and any hunter from there can tell you first hand this is one of the hottest topics especially when it comes to baiting whitetails. It sets up competition between public land users and private land owners.  It often leads to hostility on public land between hunters.  Others claim it helps spread disease and causes deer to be more nocturnal.  Wisconsin has a two gallon limit on the amount of bait but that is often overlooked and baiting violations are  the most frequent.  A lot of guys say they would not bait but feel they have  to because their neighbor does.  I guess it is kind of like smoking because baiting does effect other hunters even if they don't bait.  Sure there is a lot of positive things about baiting you can say too.  It does bring deer to the pile and gives a hunter the chance to choose their target and wait for the most ethical shot.  If nothing else it gives the hunter plenty of deer to observe and their behavior too.  It also provides a good source of income to the people who grow the bait.  Apple growers where I live now have a source for their grounders. (They can't sell apples that fall on the ground for human comsumption.
In conclusion for those of you that would like to see baiting legal in your state or region be careful what you wish for.

[jacobsladder]

Bonebuster...I understand your point..and ive hunted over a bait pile a few times in big woods.. and ive hunted crop fields many times... the crop field is already there and will most likely be there next year.... the deer will use it for food, cover if corn, and a staging area..It has become part of their habitat. And is the reason why the farm lands are loaded with deer.

so any hunter would look for the obvious sign.... trails leading from cover to the crop field...or even hunt the edge of the crop field...i tend to like to set up closer to bedding areas in the thicker areas and hunt from the ground..

I don't think of it as baiting at all...it has become a natural part of their habitat.....same as a oak grove, apple orchard, or winter wheat field.

You dont have to carry it in with you....fortunately it's already there.....


                                         

[Burnsie]

Others have already expressed it, and probably much more eloquently than I will ever be able to, but I guess for me it comes down to what degree of baiting I'm willing to tolerate, and what I think is too much.  If someone wants to argue that when I go out hunting on land surrounded by hundreds if not thousands of acres of Illinois corn and beans,  it is no different than dumping a pile of corn to attract deer to a concentrated area, I can live with that - I guess I'm baiting then.  I know its not the same regardless of how many ways someone wants to spin it.  Deer can and do come to the fields in a million different locations.  Sure, I will increase my odds with some diligent scounting looking for the most used travel corridors, finding rub and scrape signs...etc.   Out on that ocean of corn/beans there will obviously be some locations that are a lot more promising than others and a smart hunter will focus on those. The fact that the deer can show up in a multitude of different locations is a big difference for me. I've played the game many times, trying to out think the deer. Looking at the wind/weather, knowing what they did last time and then setting up in the location I think is the best option, only to have them show up 400 yds away at the other end of the ocean.   Then move and have it happen in reverse.  Sometimes you choose right and everything comes together.  I don't know about others, but that seems a whole lot different than sitting in a location where you know exactly where the deer will be. I'm sure baited deer do become very spooky and they don't always show up predictably, they go nocturnal...etc...etc, and that can add a lot of challenge to the hunt.   But it sure takes a lot of the guess work out of where you are going to sit that evening.

[xtrema312]

My family came from the UP of MI.  They moved to the SLP a generation before me.  When I was a small boy I remember them heading off to deer camp in the UP with friends and family back in the old stopping ground where the roads were named after the family tree.  They would bringing back nice bucks with extreme regularity along with strings of grouse and woodcock.  I have albums full of deer and bear on the pole.  No farms, no bait piles.  Just good hunters hunting great habitat.   They are all gone now.  I am sure they would be sad to see it now and to see what "hunting" the UP as become in many places.

[coffee]

A few more points on Wisconsin for clarification.  Baiting is not allowed in all hunting units.  Where CWD is proven to exist baiting is not allowed and in the surrounding areas as well.  Baiting currently mostly takes place in the northern half of the state.  The DNR once had an emergency year ban on baiting statewide because of CWD but had to bring it back because of popular support. Wisconsin's state legislature passed a law limiting baiting for deer to two gallons in units where legal .  Also you can also only put so much bait on private land.  In otherwords you cannot have multiple  two gallon piles.
One more point.  The WTA (Wisconsin Traditional Archers) went on record several years ago voting unanismly to oppose the use of bait for deer hunting at their annual meeting. The WBH Wiconsin bowhunters voted on the issue and it almost split the organization.  They now take a neutral stance on the issue.  The WBH is made up of mostly compound shooters but does have traditional archers as well.  The Wisconsin DNR is also opposed to the use of bait but because of the current legislation cannot do much about it.  All this is food for thought guys.  A lot of my fellow members of the WTA bait for bear and see no contradiction when it comes to deer. I can tell you this for sure, I would not wish this to take place in your state or province. It has been ugly.

[Biggie Hoffman]

OK Guys  Gmatt says we shouldn't be wasting time with this discussion so I guess we'd better stop.......

[TheFatboy]

I'd say that this matter is very simple.

Is the meat you bring home, absolutely necessary for your family to survive, and make a living? If so, you are - in my opinion - allowed to do whatever it takes to get meat on the table.

If you hunt for thrills and excitement, and because you love it, why defeat that exact purpose? A good hunt does not rely on the trophy alone, so there should be no good reason to eliminate the challenge by putting up bait. In hunting, you don't have to win, to have a great experience.

That's my take on this whole thing anyway.

[GMMAT]

I don't know why you want to drag my name back into this, mr. hoffman.

This is what I said.....FIVE PAGES ago (which was my last entry).

And, I still feel this way.  If you have issues with what I posted.....address the message, and not the messenger.

   

With as much controversy (both real and perceived) in the realm of hunting as we have, today.......Do we not have better/more productive things to do.....than to tear down another man's pursuits?
 

[Biggie Hoffman]

HahAHa  just wanted to make sure you were still reading this one...

[bill langer]