Deer anatomy question?

[SuperK]

Went out stumping today and stumbled (nearly literally) on the remains of a 7-point buck I shot during hunting season.  He "jumped the string" on me and it looked like I hit him high in the shoulderblade area. Long story short, I didn't recover him.  Today when I found the remains, you could see clearly in the shoulder blade where the broadhead had cut and penetrated through it.  After looking at the deer anatomy charts here on Tradgang (and the 3d ones) I was wondering if the position of the shoulder blade pivots to a more horizonal position when a deer ducks or squats? As many deer as I have killed and/or cleaned, I have never really noticed!   :rolleyes:   Thanks ya'll

[JimB]

It might pivot a little when ducking.The closest to horizantal a shoulder blade should get,is when the front leg is extended forward to the extreme.

[KSdan]

The blade moves upward and out of the way when the leg moves BACKWARD.  You are better shooting a deer with the leg back than forward.  I would agree with JimB- the blade drops into a more horizontal position when the leg moves forward (covering more vitals I might add).  Contrary to much tv myth, shoot right above the elbow as it comes back and you have no worries about the shoulder blade.

[Ostrorogi]

[KSdan]

I have never liked that drawing as the spine actually drops down even lower- to half way between top and bottom.

Deer # 1. The picture shows the arrow- it hit the spine. Dropped the deer.
   

Deer # 2 This picture has the actual spine marked 7" down from the top of the back.  The deer is 15-16" from top to bottom.  The vital area is then 6" before you get to the sternum- which rounds down 2-3". Mind you- this is a 220# field dressed deer.  Most deer are much smaller. This deer is hanging up so the leg is actually hanging forward a bit- in a real standing deer the elbow would be back at the front corner (where the tape intersects and where you see the arrow hit- right through the heart).  Notice the entire area between the shoulder blade and elbow as the deer is standing.  You have an area 6" x 7" on a deer this large-basically the size of the inner part of a pie plate.  Typical deer are more like 5 X 5.

   

[Killdeer]

Very useful pic, Maj. I saved that to my files. I can visualize the deer crouching, with the space between the scapula and the humerus getting smaller, getting ready to leap.

Sorry that you did not recover your fine buck in time, SuperK, your shot would have likely been more effective on a perfectly calm animal. Having lost a deer myself, I think that tracking skills should be practiced as diligently as shooting skills. I feel woefully deficient in that arena. Well, now you know where THIS one ran, and likely why.

Killdeer  

[Killdeer]

KSdan, thanks! Very educational! I never argue with a real deer, living or not.

Killdeer  

[JimB]

"I would agree with JimB- the blade drops into a more horizontal position when the leg moves forward (covering more vitals I might add)."

That is exactly right.I have studied cat anatomy more than deer so I was afraid to say if a deer shoulder blade would go completely horizantal when reaching forward but on a cat it does.

The tricep muscle goes from the back of the elbow to it's attachment point near the end of the shoulder blade.When the leg goes forward the tricep is stretched and pulls on the end of the scapula,bringing it down considerably.

At least on a cat,that brings the bottom of that horizantal shoulder blade halfway down the body.Imagine how much is covered if you are shooting downward from a tree.

On the plus side,however,when the leg is stretched forward,the upper leg bone or humerus,is forward also,opening up the heart area.

When the animal is crouched,the elbow comes up,putting the humerous in the horizantal position.This now covers the heart and lower lung area.At the same time,the shoulder blade tries to go vertical,opening the upper lung a little.

Think of it this way,the shoulder blade tries to stay the same angle as the foreleg.By foreleg I mean that section-elbow to knee.If the foreleg angles forward,the shoulder blade mimics that angle until the leg is stretched to it's max.The shoulder blade is somewhat limited in motion.

I will try find a couple pictures.

[JimB]

OK,this is a bobcat but it should give you some idea.

The top photo is more of a stalking pose not crouching but similar.In a crouch,the elbow would be higher and the top of the scapula would kick forward more,almost to a vertical position.

You can see how much that upper leg bone would cover the lower vitals when it goes horizantal.

The lower picture shows the outstretched leg.At first glance,it may not be obvious how much the shoulder blade has moved but the arrow is pointing to the rear corner of the shoulder blade.You can see the shadow which is the lower edge of the shoulder blade and it's rear corner.

The rear edge of that scapula,now horizantal,is below the halfway point of the rib cage.Imagine shooting downward from a treestand.

The anatomy diagrams are good but they never reflect the range of motion of that shoulder blade and upper leg bone.

I would love to see an interactive diagram where you could change the body angles,quartering to,quartering away,viewed from above,below etc AND with the shoulder going through it's range of motion.Maybe some day.
 

[Whip]

I hit a buck just like that last fall.  Here is the link to a thread I started about it at the time.  I'll bet if you read my story you might be able to relate it to yours.  Things are not always as they seem....
 http://tradgang.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=1;t=080198;p=1

[Whip]

Here are a couple of pictures from the previous thread showing the broadhead lodged just above the spine and through the shoulder blade.  The deer did not drop from the spine hit, and in fact I jumped him a couple of hours later and ended up recovering him maybe 400 yards from the original hit.  When I first hit him I didn't think he was hurt badly at all.
 

 

[twostrings]

I'm glad you found your deer! Just sorry you didn't find it sooner. m

[KSdan]

Whip- curious with that hit what caused the lethality?  Did you get the artery below the spine??

[Whip]

No, hardly any blood at all.  None at all on the ground and very little around the entrance.  On my original thread John Berger (Missouri Sherpa) guessed that it caused some swelling of the spinal tissue and led to paralysis of the respiratory system.  John is a physician, and had some bigger words for it, but it sure seemed to fit with what I saw.

[Richie Nell]

KSdan,
I absolutley agree with the "No man's land" above the spine.  I know I have hit that spot to only get grease on my arrow and a very healthy deer afterwards.  But the pictures usually do not show there is enough room for that.

There is.

[KSdan]

Thanks Whip. . . that says A LOT about tracking.

[SuperK]

Hey Whip....I went back and read your older post.  Great info in that one!  How in the heck did I miss it when you first posted it?  Those pictures really are worth a thousand words.  Thanks again ya'll for all the input.

[Ostrorogi]

 
 
 

[Whip]

Originally posted by Ostrorogi:
 

Looks like the caribou are having a real tough winter!!   :eek:

[KSdan]

Ostrorogi- re-check my photos with the actual spine drawn with a marker on the masking tape.  That dark line is the actual spine.  Then compare that to the drawings. I really think drawings are generally wrong.