FOC; highley overrated???? (and carbon vs woodies...)

[Flying Dutchman]

First of all: I am a 3D shooter only. In the Netherlands, bowhunting is forbidden and illegal.

I started one year and a half ago with traditional archery. As on the most tournamants woodies only are permitted, I started with POC's. After a short while I started to build them myself. Did the upmost to end up with a FOC of 8,5% (9% is considered to be ideal) Ofcourse I took care that everything else fitted the bill too. I shoot very good with them. Won already some prices on some National tournaments.
Since they decided that for the Dutch National Traditional Championship carbon is allowed too, I started with carbon.
I shoot with a very light mildly R/D longbow, 38#@29",which is my drawlenght.
I ended up with Goldtip Entrada 15-35 Ultralights, which I bareshafted extensively till 35 yards. At their full lenght of 30" they needed a 125 grains fieldtip with the normal insert of 14.6 grains and a weight adapter of 20 grains. The adapters are very easily installed with the wrench, great system!
However, I ended up with a FOC of 20% and that's very close to EFOC.

I was worried how these arrows with their high FOC's would behave on tournaments, were we sometimes face distances of 70 yards, and were 50 yards is quite common.

I also heard that arrows with EFOCs would glance off less on targets and would be less sensitive for small branches and leaves.

I also changed my 16 strands FF string for a 6 strands ultra SBD string. Altogether I gained 20 fps in speed, shooting around 190 fps now. I also installed a bowquiver to reduce handshock and gain stability.

So far so good.

Than I started to practice with the carbons and to my astonishment, I didn't notice any difference in aiming. I expected the carbons with the EFOCs to hit the target lower, but I couldn't notice any difference. I shoot purely instinctive, split finger, and two eyes open, focusing on the target.I can even shoot my woodies and carbons through eachother, hitting the target every time, isn't that odd???

Even on long ranges like 50 yards or more, no difference! People warned me that these arrows wouldn't be suitable for longer ranges, but on the contrary! Last Sunday I shot my best 3D round ever with these arrows. We had to hit a target on 70 yards, it was a big bison. I shot it with my first arrow right in the kill! Amazing but true.

Of course I can notice the difference between the slower flying wood (170 fps) or the fast flying carbons (190 fps) Woodies are way more forgiving were carbons take advantage of every small form-mistake you make.

And now some myth-busting        :

I shot three important tournaments with them and as glancing off the targets concerned, carbons with EFOC do it just as easy as woodies with a 9% FOC.

As for sensitivity for small branches and leaves: I can't notice any difference between my woodies and carbons. Carbons with EFOCs get deflected too!

As for deeper penetration: on an ethafoam 220 pack my carbons penetrate in the best case about 1/3 inch deeper. For accurate measurement I really shot the different arrows very close to each other at the same distances.

As for consequent shooting and deadly acurate shooting: carbons all the way, as long you don't make any mistakes in your form. In that case you will get punished hard.

As for staying in one piece: indeed, carbon won't break. However, when a carbon arrow hits a thick branche and bounces away, or bounnce off the target dissapearing with a speed of over the 190 fps in the woods, you'd be most luckey to find it back again. On the three tournaments I lost two carbons. I would say I loose as an average one woodie per tournament.

I know I won't be concerned for a too high FOC anymore, getting the right spine is much more important I think.

Just wanted to share this with my fellow-tradgangers.....

[JimB]

Very interesting.Thanks for the information.

[JC]

Originally posted by Flying Dutchman:
And now some myth-busting        

Well, I wouldn't call that "mythbusting" but rather, your opinion through your experiences. My mileage varies quite a bit from yours, in 3D and especially in hunting situations. I'm sure, at least from my experiences, that increased FOC has appreciable benefits.

[Bjorn]

Spine trumps all for sure. What is the weight difference between your woodies and carbons?

[Earthdog]

For real competition "not close range 3D" EFOC is a definate killer of tradjectory and extended range shooting.

Even in hunting I've yet to see any real advantages.

I shot what ever FOC the arrows I made came up with for more than thirty years then this EFOC craze came along,so I set up a set of arrow with around 25% EFOC.

The only thing that changed was my point on distance,where I lost around 15-20 yards.

You can imagine how that effected my 65-80 yard field archery shots.

For people that shoot beyond 20-30 yards,,,EFOC is a bad joke.

[JC]

Originally posted by Earthdog:
For people that shoot beyond 20-30 yards,,,EFOC is a bad joke.

As I previously posted, my mileage varies quite dramatically from that opinion. I shoot over 30 yards and EFOC is anything but a bad joke.

To each, his own.

[Over&Under]

Beyond 20-30 yds, EFOC certainly has is benefits from what I have experienced.  Mostly regarding penetration, which is not really in question here, but I would assume that even the arrow staying on a true course despite wind and other factors that come into play at longer distances, EFOC would shine!

[Flying Dutchman]

Originally posted by Bjorn:
Spine trumps all for sure. What is the weight difference between your woodies and carbons?

My woodies are 12GPP and my carbons 9.4

[kat]

Since this forum is dedicated to hunting; the results that most on here are looking for pertain to a hunting situation where more than 50 or 70 yard shots are not taken.  Your observations are interesting, but I'll stick with EFOC.

[Flying Dutchman]

Originally posted by Earthdog:

For people that shoot beyond 20-30 yards,,,EFOC is a bad joke.

As I posted before, my milage varies a lot!
 
"Even on long ranges like 50 yards or more, no difference! People warned me that these arrows wouldn't be suitable for longer ranges, but on the contrary! Last Sunday I shot my best 3D round ever with these arrows. We had to hit a target on 70 yards, it was a big bison. I shot it with my first arrow right in the kill! Amazing but true".

[Bill Carlsen]

Dutchman: I have found the same to be true. We have a pond in back of our house and a game feeder. It's about 70 yards from my back door. I have killed two squirrels from that distance with EFOC arrrows. They work as well as lighter arrows at those distances....at least for you and me.

[Zradix]

The ONLY way to get more FOC balance (while using the same shaft) is to add weight to the tip. Doing this requires a higher spined, or just shorter shaft.

More weight= less speed= more trajectory arc.

More arc= more margin for error the longer the shot is.

There is a point (and it's different for each and every bow) that a bow will impart the MAXIMUM amount of energy to the arrow. The only way to find this "magic spot"is chrono the arrow and keep track of the speed and the weight of the arrow.-then do some math..(Mass X Velocity works well for this. No reason to overcomplicate it)

FOC and EFOC setups...think of the balance point on your arrow as a "swivel" The closer the balance point is the the tip the more leverage the fletching has to do its job.

The best target shooting setups are altogether different from the best hunting setups. Don't get me wrong, you can target shoot with your hunting setups...and you should, BUT there IS a better setup for strictly target shooting than the best hunting setup.

Close range Hunting is all about efficiency and accuracy.

Target shooting only accuracy.

If I were target shooting only I'd use a light and fast setup that I'd never use on an animal, cept maybe a frog.

My rambling 2 cents

[tradtusker]

"FOC; highley overrated????"  Not for hunting

in fact iv found benefits across the board

[Jacko]

I have been using high FOC bordering on extreme FOC shafts since I learned how to taper wood arrows in the mid 90's, you could say I fell into it as a result of reducing spine by tapering a bunch of shafts.

I have made and used timber shafts with over 20% , they are a bunch of work with large tapered diameters, hardwood footings etc. Weighting up carbons is a lot easier and I have 1 set with 25% FOC and another set with 18%. I much prefer the 18% simply because the EFOC shafts being parallel are massively heavy and have a very high trajectory. This is not the fault of EFOC but of the arrows thick walled parallel design.

In my experience for 3d tournament or Bowhunting a matched, tapered set of arrows with 15% to 18% FOC  works a treat and gives me better accuracy through cleaner arrow flight when combined with all the other factors a quality set of arrows has. Extreme FOC or low FOC means little on it's own as other folks have eluded to.

Lots of lessons in the past in regards to FOC and most other crazes that sweep archery. Look at the number of primitive cultures that use high to extreme FOC arrows, often in conjunction with extreme length by western standards. Look at the EFOC used by medieval arrows and crossbow bolts. Why would folks from ages past waste time and resources on survival tools that did not work

regards Jacko

[Jesse Peltan]

Foc does NOT change trajectory.  Only arrow speed, drag, and arrow momentum can change trajectory.  EFOC can actually flatten your trajectory slightly by stabilizing the arrow faster so there is less drag.  With higher foc you can also use smaller fletchings to get the same stability.  The optimum foc is 50% not 9%.  50% foc is impossible to achieve because the shaft and feathers have to weight something but higher is better.  The balance point of an arrow pulls it so changing the foc wouldn't change trajectory until we account for archers paradox and drag, then higher foc flattens trajectory.  Lower foc does not help in any way.  The reason people used to use low foc is to get a lighter arrow that still could tune.  Now that isn't necessary that we have carbons even if you want a 2-3gpp arrow.  Ol adcock is setting flight records with efoc for the reasons mentioned.  Efoc is better for both short and long distance shooting.  Efoc is more forgiving to form errors(like bigger fletchings except efoc flattens trajectory).  If two arrows have equal length, fletching design, weight, and dynamic spine the one with more foc will recover faster, fly faster and flatter, and be more stable.  These are the facts not opinions.  They are based on physics.  Saying that low foc shoots flatter than high foc is like saying the earth is flat.  

"For people that shoot beyond 20-30 yards,,,EFOC is a bad joke."  How is EFOC a "bad joke"?  Efoc preforms better in every category than low foc.

[Ragnarok Forge]

Hmm,

I recently read an article where the ultra long range shooters are all going to UEFOC arrows and finding that they are shooting new world record distances with them.  EFOC and UEFOC's benefits all depend on what your trying to do and how.  I noticed your carbons with EFOC are lighter than your woods.  Those carbons will drop off later than your woods will,  Mass and velocity determine trajectory, not FOC.

[Richie Nell]

Flying Dutchman,

You're right.

[Jesse Peltan]

Ragnarok Forge, you're almost all correct.  Inertia(mass), velocity, and drag determine trajectory(drag is only a factor when not shooting in a vacuum).  Higher foc stabilizes an arrow faster(assuming equal dynamic spine) reducing drag and flattening trajectory.   This is why people are shooting new flight records with Efoc and UEfoc.

[Jason R. Wesbrock]

Flying Dutchman,

Please correct me if I'm wrong, but if I'm reading this correctly, you're light carbons with EFOC shot the same point of impact as your heavier wood arrows with normal FOC? If so, I'm not surprised, but just wanted to make sure that I understood your post.

[FrankM]

Originally posted by Jesse Peltan:
Ragnarok Forge, you're almost all correct.  Inertia(mass), velocity, and drag determine trajectory(drag is only a factor when not shooting in a vacuum).  Higher foc stabilizes an arrow faster(assuming equal dynamic spine) reducing drag and flattening trajectory.   This is why people are shooting new flight records with Efoc and UEfoc.

So you're saying high EFOC arrows will maintain their velocity longer? Or, in other words, they lose velocity at a slower rate?